[Nyororin]

I don`t like to take about my personal life all that deeply... but... I feel particularly frustrated by your statements as I AM a woman who has made the choice to take the "traditional" wifely role. All on my own. Without being pressured or oppressed into it. So try for a moment to realize that I am actually coming from the other side of this.

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

Why do these women want to take that path? Why is it a part of their personality to stay at home and take care of the house and their husbands? Feminists aren't fighting against these individual women - we're fighting against the system that makes women think that they have a particular role to fulfill. It's the system, in my opinion, that conditions and brainwashes women into thinking that they have a place in this society. Any human being can want many things. If society tells me that, in order to be successful, I must make a lot of money and buy a big house - then gosh darn it, I'm going to want to make a lot of money and buy a big house. If society tells women that, in order to be good wives, they need to stay at home and cook and take care of their husbands - well, then, I'm sure many women will want to do just that.

You persist in saying that women who made these choices or are happy in these roles feel that way ONLY because society has conditioned them to feel that way. Perhaps that is true in some cases. However, it is forcing your opinion if you say that it is the only possible reason.

Conditioning is a state that goes deep into the subconscious. It effects everyone - even to the smallest details, such as someone's favorite color... or, to the larger issues, such as someone preferring a white skin over black skin. It also effects how people perceive their roles in society. In my society, as a black woman, I've been told that I need to stand up for myself constantly. So, gosh darn it, I'll do just that. I've also been told constantly that my place is in the kitchen, cooking for men and cleaning up after men. That's one thing that I decided I wouldn't do. I could have CHOSEN to do it, yes. I would have been HAPPY doing it, yes - because hey, that's what I wanted. I know women who are happy doing just that. I'm not fighting against those women, though. I'm fighting against the system that suggested to us and conditioned us into thinking that we belong in the house, into making us happy acting as housewives because we think that's our only role.

The only way a woman could be happy in that role is if she has been conditioned to believe it is the only one? That is certainly a revelation to me as I have a university degree and had a very nice career - but still made the active choice to assume the role I currently have. I agree that a woman shouldn`t make a choice against her true desires based on pressure from society... But to rule out the possibility that a woman could make that choice without having been brainwashed into it strikes me as a bit odd. Not everything is oppression.

When asked, "What do you want to be?" I've seen little girls say, "A mommy." And, when asked if they knew if they could go out and do anything else, I've seen them say no. Sad, right?

Not necessarily. I`ll tell you a little story. A long long time ago, when I was in grade school, I was asked that sort of question and gave a similar answer. My teacher spent the rest of the year trying with all her might to convince me that ANYTHING was better than that. I could be anything! - as long as it wasn`t a wife and mother. That honestly made me feel horrible. It made me feel ashamed and that I should hide how I really felt. I dreaded having to make up something to make everyone happy whenever we had to talk about what we wanted to be. If I could be anything, why was that one option wrong? Is it not just as bad to belittle a little girl saying she wants to be a doctor as it is to be appalled that she wants to be a wife/mother?

A woman can cook. I'm not arguing against that. What I am arguing against is the idea that a woman must cook - only a woman, not a man - because that's her role. Hey, I love cooking. I'll cook for myself and others any day. But I also look towards others - including men - to do the same for me. That's what equality is all about, right? (And, I'm not sure if you know where this conversation stemmed from - but, if you look back a few pages, you'll see that this is all I've been arguing against from the beginning. We were talking about 50-50 relationships. Some thought that one must dominate the other in a relationship for it to work properly.)

In the situation where one partner is out working and the other is not - shouldn`t the one not out working take equal responsibility via cooking/housework? I do not expect my husband to cook or clean because he is out working every day - to support the household. That work is far more stressful than what I do each day. I would be quite disgusted with myself if I were so selfish as to demand that he cook and clean after spending the day working. Despite being the one "in the home" I feel our relationship is entirely equal. Not only that, I am extremely happy. And before you say that this is because I do not know anything else - I worked full time and supported us at one point. I hated it.

As for your opinion, I wasn't talking about the choices women make. I was talking about your opinion, and my opinion, and the opinions on this thread. There are countless opinions, 20 pages worth. So - well, why is it MY opinion that people have jumped on? That's really what I was referring to.

Do you really want me to answer this?

I don't know where you got the impression that many feminists are like that. In my experience, feminists are men and women who fight so that women have the same economic chances as men. In my experience, feminists are men and women who fight ardently against violence against women. I think you have a stereotypical image of a feminist, the type of image processed by oppressors so that people will back away from the idea of equality.

I have gotten this impression through the actions self proclaimed feminists have taken in my direct vicinity. I have been told countless times that I am being oppressed. That my husband is forcing me into a subservient position. I have been called a disgrace to feminism (for having a degree and a career and then opting out of it... *gasp*). I have been told by a large number of ("feminist") women that I should be ashamed of myself for not making the "right" choices. I have been informed that I am a terrible mother for not pushing the "right" ideals on my son.
I cannot even begin to count the number of times I have been told that I should leave my husband because "he made me quit my job" or because "he keeps me at home" or "he robbed me of my dreams" along with various other completely insane assumptions. I will never forget opening a bottle for my husband while his hands were full - and turning around to see the shock and disgust aimed in his direction.

If that is the stereotype, then these women need to be told not to work so hard to support it.

Also, I never said that you said they're not real women. I looked back. I checked. I really did not say that. I was speaking of different societies in general who most certainly do think and feel that way. Right now, I'm in a society that thinks I'm not a real woman for thinking this way. Believe me, if you'd said that to me, I wouldn't have responded so calmly.

- "What I'm arguing is that women make that choice because they were conditioned to think a certain way. It's like a virus that keeps spreading. In my opinion, it's brainwashing. When someone is brought up to think, "I'm inferior, my place is in the house,"OF COURSE they're going to make the "choice" to stay in the house. OF COURSE they're going to look at independent women and think that they aren't acting like "real women." "
Follow your own logic. Women only make the choice to stay home because they were brainwashed and conditioned to think it is right. Therefore, all women who stay at home have been brainwashed and conditioned to feel that way. I made the "choice" to stay in the house - so of course, I must be looking at independent women and thinking they aren`t acting like "real women", right?