[Tenchu]

Originally Posted by iPhantom

This is where people struggle to understand. If dirt comes from coal fire, the coal fire does NOT create it. It's just a chemical reaction. In other words, plain transformation. All chemical reactions have the same law "Nothing is destroyed, nothing is created, everything is transformed".

Think of anything and you'll discover that nothing has been created as far as we know. All the chemical substances have existed. Now new element has been created.

What do you think I'm stupid? That's what I meant. Yes, it's the transformation. Whatever; point is, each transformation turns it into a new product that is a biproduct of the last event. You can trace them back.

Originally Posted by iPhantom

Also, Big Bang is said to be the reason of this universe, there might have been other universe before. Or maybe before the Big Bang, there was emptiness, which is not the same as nothingness. Anyway, we can't even make 100% emptiness, vacuums are not perfect, so it's pure speculation.

The big bounce is the same as the big bang. There still has to be a point somewhere where it started.

Time and space can be taken away (or, in your view, taken away to be recycled, but it still is an end to existence as we know it). They are physical things. Try and shove that brick through your ear and you should understand.

Upon taking them away, that matter that continuously recycles in the physical world transforms into something else. I'm not arrogant enough to guess what, exactley, but.

It's up to you to use your brain that at some point in time, there was no time. If you think eternity stretches in both directions, that's up to you, but it makes you just another believer, same as religous folk.

Originally Posted by iPhantom

Also, based on what you're saying it's becoming very hard to believe God exist. If he doesn't exist in any dimension or anything that we are in now, where does he exist?

We're unable to answer that. We're not smart enough. Our brains were made to cut wood, carry water, not mentally reconstruct the most pure manner of existence that's ever existed. We've about us much chance of figuring this answer out as a buffalo does.

Originally Posted by iPhantom

If Big Bang created us, can it be counted as God?

Well, if there was a state where there was no time and space, thus no eternity for things to be recycled in, then when the first big bang occured, it must have been triggered by something.

I mean, shit don't just magically explode one day; bombs have detonators or timers, "God".

Don't get me wrong, I think these religous nuts are as crazy as Ronin is, just like you. But I'm trying to show you there may be elements that are beyond your understanding, and it's foolish to be so damn conclusive.

I view the thing that triggered the big bang to just be another elemental thing, rather than a concious being. I mean, conciousness requires time in order to plot and be self aware in. This is unrealistic thing to think about God (which should replace your question "Who created God?" with "Who created the time that God sat in in order to think about creating time?" See? Religous folk are dumb, but not much more than you). He could be no more concious than fire or water. At the same time, there's really little we do know about it; however, to simply assume no spiritual element at all is involved is also arrogance.

Can I ask you a question; what's the difference between you and your computer? I mean, we could programme a computer to constantly ponder it's an individual, but you know it wouldn't be the same, would it? There's an element inside you beyond a simple mental trigger to say you're an individual; there's something that makes your conciousness more valid than a robot would ever be. What is it?