[Columbine]

Originally Posted by xyzone

Regardless, this jerk/confident behavior, whatever you want to call it is what women inherently find attractive. I was never arguing conscious decision, as in what women say they want, somebody "charming", for one. This is what "nice guys" are trying to be and failing at.

They don't 'inherently' find the bad behaviour attractive though, which is what you were implying. They find the by-products of jerk insensitivity and deceit (confidence, flattery) attractive.

Originally Posted by xyzone

Hey, I agree with you, with your general point. But I can best speak from the male perspective, so as such can only advise other young men on what strategy to adopt.

So stop putting words in women's mouths then. If you can admit have no idea what women think, why bandy about as if you do? ADVISE men to beware of gold-diggers, jerk girls and the legal pitfalls of marriage , of course, but don't hyperbolize that women are all conniving bitches who want nothing more than their heads on a silver salver and their assets in a grab-bag.

Originally Posted by xyzone

No, my point was that we could just speculate forever and reach no ultimate truth in this. We have to work with what we know first.

Nice back-peddle function you have there. Does it also dig holes?

Originally Posted by xyzone

Most single mothers, esp. in the case of never-married single mothers, it can't be assumed are making wise, conscious decisions. This bracket better represents people acting on more instinct than thought. This trend of single mothers is rising higher among the lower classes than anywhere else. If you want to argue these single mothers are making thoughtful choices that turned out to be mistakes, that's fine, but I don't see that as having much impact.

Right, because pregnancy means your brains leak out. Never-married single mothers cannot possibly be using marriage as a tool to leech off of men, so they have no place in this discussion. Divorced single mothers are less likely to re-marry than divorced single women, so their dating choices post divorce don't have much impact on your 'marriage is dumb' argument either; if they're screwing men over for money, it tends to be outside of the marriage contract. Which brings us back to the divorce itself; which in america probably IS stacked in the woman's favour, but then women are still more likely than men to have given up work to rear children than men. For married couples, a stay-at-home parent is often more economic than paying for child-care. That's a smarter choice than retaining financial independence, particularly if at the time the decision is made, divorce isn't on the radar. So yes, I think these women are making conscious moves that turn out to be mistakes if they date jerks, but then they're also more vulnerable to jerk tactics. Single motherhood is stressful, frugal and often romantically lonely. They aren't living the highlife you seem to imagine them living! Of all demographics, they're going to be looking for the nice guy, because they're not just interviewing for a partner anymore. He's got to also step up and play dad and that takes some serious thought as to if he's a jerk or not.

Originally Posted by xyzone

In most of the cases of single mothers, this would seem like merely tremendous rationalizing.

Maybe the ones you know, but then I thought we weren't getting into personal observations any more. Show me some data if you really think single women only date jerks.

Originally Posted by xyzone

Never said it was. I wasn't focusing on hating women, even if it looks that way to some. My focus is on advising the male perspective on a real and very significant trend.

You're quite blind if you think you don't come across the way you do. As I said, advise by all means, don't rant about how you think american women are all vicious scavenging bimbos and men should just take advantage of any weaknesses they can find and be abusive. How is THAT going to make anything better for anyone?

Your advise so far? "Don't get married cause girls are so mean, Don't be nice- be a jerk so you'll get laid, harden your heart, be feckless with your relationships, screw around,"; Great practical advice there. How does that work in the long term? If you're concerned about men's welfare then where's the actual advice; the "How to avoid getting in a bad relationship" stuff; the "How to spot if a girl isn't genuine" advise? You've put yourself on a pedestal as the saviour of vulnerable men but you're not helping anyone. You're just venting bile and throwing around a few figures on a bias that don't actually have any real impact on anyone personally. If 50% divorce, then that's still half of all marriages succeeding, and I highly doubt people get married on the basis of "ooh, the divorce rate has dropped, we should get hitched!" It's irrelevant. Other factors cause divorces, not the rate of divorce itself.

Originally Posted by xyzone

Well, MMM and Nyororin seem to be, for one.

No, as they've already answered, they both said it has a place and shouldn't be reacted to as if it's dog dirt or that only morons get married. They didn't say to have a relationship you MUST be married.