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Paul11 (Offline)
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Posts: 546
Join Date: May 2008
05-19-2010, 09:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM View Post
I redefined my quote in the quote you quoted me (but I misspelled "saw" as "say".)

What I would like to know is what defines "suspicion" if "race" is not a factor.

You say it is "well laid out in the courts with a very common and agreed apon meaning."

Please break it down for me.

You also say "This is how bad guys get off on technicalities, often. In the prelim the defense picks apart the officer and his investigation in attempt to make the officer appear incompetent or immoral."

If this is a regular practice it sounds like the officers and investigations need to be revamped so this doesn't happen.

You can call me an ignoramus, but if hard criminals are getting away because investigators and police officers are botching investigations, then that is a problem.

Incompetency and immorality are two aspects I have not talked about. I don't know if these are major issues, and I am not going to say that they are. I am just saying...again...that American citizens living in or traveling Arizona shouldn't lose the ability to do so.
Officers (professional ones) conduct thier investigations very carefully with a clear understanding of how to conduct an investigation to stand-up to legal scrutiny. I didn't say the cops were incompetent or immoral. the defense attorneys attempt to make it appear so. In court it is all about impeaching (discredit) a person's statement through many different means. we (cops and DAs) have more continuous training than most doctors and other professionals to keep up with the game. Our depatment has almost 700 pages of general orders. everything in law enforcement is geared toward your suggestion of "re-vamping.

most bad guys do not get off on these technicallities because of the above described points. They just try. Sometimes they succeed. I had a bad guy get off because he was a good liar and the victim was wealthy. totally not fair, but that's part of the game.

reasonable suspicion is based on the 'reasonable man' theory. would the actions or conclusion appear reasonable to the average person. the facts and circumstances presenting reasonable suspicion must be articulatable facts.

I gave the example above of a driver stopped for a common traffic violation. It just so happenes the guy has no license, but has maintaned his residence inthe state for, oh, say, two years. Why no license? 'Cause he can't get one because he's illegal.

The guy also doesn't speak english. Not staggering evidence, but part of the overall picture.

Ok, again, the only reason someone can't get a license is because they can't pass the test or thier illegal.

So, they are in our in a border state, the dude has no license, he speaks no english and only possesses a mexican consulate ID card. The reasonable person would agree that there is reasonable suspicion he is illegal. He was not stopped or investigated for his ethnicity, although the ethnicity could also be a factor. If they are in AZ and 99.99% of the illegals are hispanic, well then it is part of the picture, but not the basis. If this were in idaho, well, close to the Canadian border, that ethnicity would probably not be a factor.

People are arrested when reasonable supicion is followed by an investigation in which probable cause for an arrest is developed. People are based on suspicion of a crime (innocent until proven guilty).

My main point is that people who yell and scream about laws like this automatically yell "racism." those same people have no clue about the laws and how thier administered. They only rely on thier own ignorance, assume we are as brutish and ignorant as themselves without realizing the legal system is deep. cops must be smart enough and educated enough to take on defense attorney's in court. Don't be fooled. this law was written to pass legal scrutiny. It expressly forbids profiling. Officer's must jump through hoops.

How does any of this trmaple the rights of citizens? If you're stopped and have a valid driver's license it is assumed your a citizen and let go on your merry way.

Side note: Except in the state of Washington (your homestate?) where licenses are given to illegals. so they all go to WA state, fake and address, obtain WA state licenses and bring them to CA state. well, we know how to investigate and prove that falls, too.
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