[steven]

I don't think I'm getting my point across... writing is, in a sense, a fake language. I'd like to think of it as a completely different language- if that makes sense. Writing is an interpretation of spoken language, which is the purest form of a language. Another thing, as far as learners of Japanese go... at a high school or college level, as soon as the kanji starts happening, people start dropping out.

I think learning a second language as an adult has more disadvantages than advantages. The mother language gets in the way of the L2 more often than not (especially in languages as different as Japanese and English). It is my opinion that starting from scratch, like a child, would be easier. I have many many friends who are bilingual. They started learning English when they were about 5 years old (although they grew up in America, so they were somewhat immersed in it though their parents did not speak English). Their English is great and their mother language I would assume is passable (although probably lacking in the written department). The examples of how your native langauge gets in the way are almost infinate. Intonation in general seems to get applied incorrectly all the time. Phrases and expressions that are culturally specific... what to say and when. etc etc. I remember someone saying something like "彼はトクベツ” with special emphasis on 特別 as though it would carry over and mean something like "he's 'SPECIAL'" with a nudge and a wink as it would in English. There are other things too... like how people say プリン is pudding, when it is in fact flan (and dictionaries are guilty of this too). Just like how　カボチャ is said to mean pumpkin, when it indeed doesn't look like what we call pumpkins. It may be a type of pumpkin (or winter squash or whatever the hell it is), but it's not what we call a pumpkin. Dictionaries are sometimes incorrect or too overly simple in that they make things out to be a simple math equation of a=b... even though there are many exceptions. This is where spoken language comes in to play. I think rather than relying on someone elses perception of a language (as would be the case when referring to a dictionary or looking for a quick translation of something) it's more beneficial in the long run (albiet a slower path) to use your eyes and understand what a word means to you.

I got to a point in my language learning where I just gave up and literally TRIED to forget most of what I'd learned so I could give a shot at learning from scratch. I had plenty of Japanese friends and I just decided to listen to as much of their conversations as possible. That's how I developed my ear.

I'm not saying that writing or kanji should be ignored forever, but I think students would benefit if they could just listen to the language and learn it that way first.

Just because we're adults and start learning a language doesn't mean that we're gonna sound like adults in that language. There's no reason for baby talk either, though.

I've read a couple of Japanese books-- ones aimed at elementary school kids. I'm not gonna push myself to understand every nuance of something like yukiguni or something like that.

I'm not saying I'm the best learner by any means... but I feel like you're questioning my intelligence. A book or two that I've seen recommended on this site for Japanese learning were actually written by some of the teachers I had, by the way. I'm not trying to brag, but my Japanese is perfectly fine. It can still use a lot of work. My spoken Japanese is fine, I would assume, as I'm mistaken for a Japanese over the phone. After talking to someone for a while, I could tell them I was born in the area that I live and they will seriously believe me... even though I'm standing right in front of them as white as white can get with my brown hair and green eyes. There are certain things that no ammount of studying from a book or cramming will get you, and that's what I was looking for-- a means to communicate.

However, the more I think about it, the more I realize there IS a big part of this picture that I'm not seeing (as I am not really connected with it). People who study Japanese are usually into manga and stuff like that, so they are looking to study written Japanese as a way to understand the 'source' of what they like. I can accept that... but for people outside of that demographic, I'd suggest more listening and observation of the Japanese language. With that said, am I really the minority here? Is that what most people want? To understand how to read Japanese right off the bat?

Please don't get me wrong though, Columbine... it is obvious that Kanji is a totally important part of learning Japanese and it would be bogus to dismiss it completely... all I'm saying is that it could be ignored for a year or so longer than it is presently for Japanese as a second language learners. There's no doubt that kanji also helps with speaking/listening to Japanese. Hearing a word that you've never heard before and understanding it because you've imagined its kanji is a good feeling as a learner and without a dobut an integral part of the language.

And I do apologize to the topic creator as my argument has strayed quite a bit from the topic at hand.