Quote:
Originally Posted by cranks
Ronin,
"BECAUSE I AM HUMAN!" is not logic. And you know it. I'm not Dolphin, so I don't care about them. You are not Dolphin, so you have no business with them. Cod Erat Demonstrandum.
You are human, so you are more "emotionally attached" to human. Yes. That's natural. But that's not a logic. Social animal species NEED to care about their own species. Or it's actually the other way around. They cared about each other, so they survived. That's how we evolved. That's why our species survived according to the Darwinist view. Now if you don't believe in evolution, please tell me so, because that'll change things a lot.
Assuming you believe in evolution, you care about humans more than pigs, because that's how our species survived. It is a "CAUSE" of our species' survival. It is not "logic". We are "made" to be that way.
How inhuman of you, Ronin, to say dogs don't have "selves" and therefore we can kill them and eat them as we please? I bet I could get a majority of English speaking people, or any human who didn't eat dog, on my side with this argument if we were talking about dogs. According to your logic, dogs don't have selves so we can kill them. How dare you say that? Haven't you a heart? :P
Really, if you think you can convince any dog owner with your "logic" of "non-self-aware animals can be killed and eaten", try it. You'll fail. Most humankind don't care if their dogs recognize their own optical images in a mirror or not. The mirror test? That's just freaking bogus. Dogs have selves. That's a given. Whatever "LOGIC" you employ won't move their hearts a bit.
Likewise, whatever "logic" I employ to "prove" that the species you call "whales" don't have "selves" will be moot. You'll just deny it, or just won't care. Everybody knows that, so please don't casually say you care about logic in the heat of a moment unless you really have a very good "logic". This topic is really about my, and a lot of Japanese people's, "beliefs". Please don't play it down. Please treat it as you treat your friends' Christian beliefs. I'm not saying "don't even talk about it", I do like to talk about it and I do appreciate your candidness. But please acknowledge that my opinion here is not something I concocted after I engaged in this discussion. It is a product of over a couple of decades of deliberation, backed, somewhat, by over a couple of thousands of years of the history of the Eastern philosophy.
You have said you are morally superior to people in Taichi and indirectly me. But if you are so morally superior, I think you should care about your own countries' inhumanity to your fellow human race first and foremost. I have brought up several racial discrimination cases by the anti-whaling folks here. And I've noticed you haven't made any comment whatsoever on that and just kept going on about whales. As I said, I like whales, but the racism to my race is more important for me than the whales. Coloreds are stabbed and killed by the racists in your country and the one next to it. What are all these "morally superior" people doing with whales? PEOPLE are being MURDERED because of racism IN YOUR COUNTRY! and these anti-whaling people are actually INCITING the racism!
Racism is hard to see when you are the majority. Myself included of course. It was a good experience that I got a racial slur in the UK on the street. (not to bash the UK. Racism happens everywhere and I think the UK is one of the better countries. It was just a stupid brad). It made my eyes open to racism and how I was so insensitive to it. I'm no better than you or anybody, but in this particular case I'm the working end of the racism, so I see more than you do. I brought up the example of Japanese mocked on street on Australian TV, but even Misa, who I believe is a very liberal person, failed to perceive it as an extremely racist act until I present the hypothesized example of Japanese people mocking Koreans on TV. Again, racism is hard to see when you are the majority. There are hundreds of thousands of racist remarks on the web regrading whaling. Sure, there are hundreds of thousands of racial remarks on the web by Japanese too, but I would NEVER EVER allow that in a group I belong to, and it is a more serious problem than most anything to me, more than the animal welfare for sure.
You probably remember how I was so worked up with Debito. I don't think he's evil to the core, he can even be a good person to hang out with. But I'm sorry, he is a bigoted racist. If posting the comic strip called "A Little Yellow Jap" that mocks Japanese race on the web, for whatever reason, doesn't earn him the racist title, I don't know what will. He is an "activist" on discrimination but he thinks it is totally fine to post that thing in public. Racism is that hard to recognize sometime.
I won't close this post with [/RANT]. It was out of modesty to do so in the last post. But this time I want my message to be clear. This is how I actually feel and what I believe in. No hard feelings though. I like your straightness and I thank you for giving me a chance to express our side of view, Ronin.
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You are crazy.. your post went all over the place. Debito? Racism? Evolution? (which I belief is a scientific fact).. this has nothing to do with the argument. Furthermore, the only one bringing up race is you? Let me say it again... there are JAPANESE people that agree with me and WESTERN people that (stupidly) agree with you. This is NOT about Japan against the West. Evidently very few people in Japan eat Whale or Dolphin anyway.
As I said before Im only concerned with addressing the points you made concerning my points (X Y and Z) of the whaling argument.
I still cant believe that you are having trouble grasping the logic.
I have business with Dolphins because to me they are self aware animals JUST LIKE ME AND YOU. They have the ability to comprehend their own death. Animals that arent self aware feel "emotions" based on pure instinct. Self aware animals not only feel that but recognise their impending doom. A cow or a pig in a field does not apparently.
Let me lay it out for you.
I believe that killing animals that are self aware is wrong.
This in itself isnt a logical statement. But if you put it in context within human society then it is the only humane conclusion that one could come to.
And I dont know why you continue to say that Im wrong about the whales and dolphins. Ive given you scientists and links which say Im right. That is good enough for me and the doubts you are casting on such opinion is not very convincing. After all, you gave me a link claiming that is said that "dolphins werent self aware" and when I checked the link it said that a strong argument can be made that they WERE self aware though the tests didnt prove outright. If that is not good enough for you then Im at the point where I think nothing will convince you.
I dont think I said anywhere that dogs werent self aware therefore we should eat them... you are putting words in my mouth.
I can probably give other reasons for why I wouldnt eat dogs. Just like I can give other reasons why I wont eat babies.
When you say that I advocate eating babies and dogs because I dont feel that self aware animals should be killed, let alone eaten then you are making a huge error in logic.
You are absolutely right about one thing. I feel that I am morally superior to the people who support whaling and dolphin hunting. I even feel morally superior to those that eat meat as I rarely eat meat except when Im a guest at someones house etc.
Anyway... I think we've exhausted the directions in which we can go from here concernig whaling and dolphin hunting.
If you want to have a discussion about why I think it is wrong to kill animals that are not self aware then feel free to do so with me.