Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleGoetz
I think you're still confusing it. With 〜ように, you are not trying to do the 〜 at all. You are doing something else so that 〜 will occur. You aren't making an effort by doing 〜at all.
For example,
雨が降るように雨乞いをします。
So that it might rain, I will do a rain dance.
You are not trying to rain. You are merely doing a dance, and your goal is that hopefully the dance causes it to rain.
Hence 〜ように should not be thought of as trying to do anything. The closest it can be to your "try" attempts is to "try and cause something to happen" rather than "try to directly do something."
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But that was all my point. I wanted to know if it had another meaning apart from try and Masaeguさん confirmed that it does. All the example I wrote would NOT work if you translated them with "try". I wanted to know if those examples would work in real Japanese and they do.
ようにする has no attempt in it. Maybe (if grammatically correct) ようにしてみる has an attempt in it. But on the other hand, it doesn't even have a purpose in it, for that you should have ようにするために. The way I used it in my language for 30 years and that Masaeguさん confirmed is a method. You do do something by means of which you obtain something else. よう means "way", not in order to or try. A way of doing something. Sometimes in English can be translated with "try", sometimes with "in order to" and other times (like the phrase that was on my book and it's quoted in my opening message) "to make sure that". It is always different.
I hope this will help you better. I got a 5 year old daughter and I am trying to teach her Italian, but she is not that good yet. The other day before going to bed I told her (in Italian) after I go to bed 音が立てないようにしてください She stared at me and said ようにして?? so I repeated 音が立てないでください. The meaning is the same. But while with the second phrase I ask her please to try not to make noise, with the first phrase I ask her please to make a strong effort not to make a noise.
Now, by what I understood from Mesaeguさん, in Japanese it is still a request. While in Italian it becomes more an order...I do want that effort to produced the result I asked. This was mainly what my question was revolving about. If they have the same use and it seems they kinda do, with some different nuances.
I really hope I am making myself understand. I don't mean to prove you wrong, but I guess you didn't understand my question from the beginning.