[MMM]

Originally Posted by RealJames

I didn't mean to ignore your points, I just felt you'd gone astray arguing if discrimination is good or a necessary evil or unavoidable etc, as opposed to if it exists or not.
Black people would still be slaves if we assumed that racial roles were an affordable evil due to the good they caused economically, which it really did do.

James, you are essentially saying that because I think gender roles are a part of nature, I am a misogynist, just as if I were to say there are any differences between races I would be a racist.

I just want to point that out and then reject it, completely.

Originally Posted by RealJames

To address your points though.

Gender roles work very well in Japan, they cause this society to be a very well oiled machine and it's almost exemplary, many men and women are happy to play their roles.
Those gender roles are very strong in fact, it's because of that that Japan does so well with them. People follow them without a fuss and seem quite fine with them.

At least until the overworked man commits suicide.
Or until the bored housewife loses all romantic interest in her virtually non-existent husband.
Or until a woman wants to have both a career and a family.

I'm not in a position to argue whether or not this is good, Japan has thrived under these conditions, but it's been the cause of a lot of anxiety and also it's frowned upon by most westerners who see it from the outside.

You are mixing in the macro-system and the micro-systems, but let's at them.

At least until the overworked man commits suicide.

The worth ethic and (over)expectations of the Japanese businessman are well documented. But is that a problem with that, or with gender roles?

Or until the bored housewife loses all romantic interest in her virtually non-existent husband.

Again, is this a gender role problem, or a work expectation problem?

Or until a woman wants to have both a career and a family.

Is this actually happening? It seems that the problem in Japan is that women are more interested in working, and having a career, or more importantly freedom for longer in life, and that is why people are marrying later and there are fewer children.

This is a complicated issue, but simply put, this control is much in the hands of women. This is why I ask, "where is the oppression"?

Although I think your micro-system examples of why the macro-system don't work, it is worth looking at.

Can society absorb those that cannot function withing the "norms" and still survive? Of course! There are subcultures in all societies, including Japan, that don't live in traditional gender roles.

Can micro-systems survive? Of course, there are many people who do not fit into traditional gender roles who thrive in society.

Originally Posted by RealJames

With regards to discrimination, I'm not talking about the kind of survival discrimination we all use daily. I'm talking about the kind of discrimination that takes away freedom of choice or even the awareness of that choice.

More and more women in Japan are exercising that freedom. So where is the oppression?

Originally Posted by RealJames

Just to be clear, I see nothing wrong with a woman wanting to be a housewife.
What I do see as wrong is a woman typecasting herself as a housewife without the option of considering a career. Or if she does have that option, to have a much more difficult time doing it than a man.

I have to say this is a very Western outlook, which is natural, but I just want to point that out.

I think many Japanese women might return with "Why would I want a career? For a society to function SOMEONE has to raise the children. Why is the world for women divided into two categories: career or housewife? For me, being a mom and a wife IS my job... my career. My home is my castle not a prison sentence."

Why is success measured in dollars and cents? Why can't it be in a beautiful home and well-behaved and studious children, for example?