[tangomike]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

1- Regarding Japan, there is no evidence of a major conflict between the people designated the Yayoi (the first wave of migrants from East Asia once the land bridge between the continent and the Japanese islands closed up) and the Jomon. They settled the land the Jomon didn't use actually. The Jomon were hunter gatherers settling at the base of forested mountains hills and valleys as well as near the ocean. The Yayoi were an agricultural people who settled in between. And while the yayoi influence eventually overcame the Jomon... you can't say that it was the result of a conflict between the two peoples.

2- The Germanic tribes didn't actually halt Roman armies nor do Germans differ all that much culturally and genetically from Western Europeans.

Aside from these factual innacuracies.. this darwinian worldview of International Relations is simply out of date in an increasingly globalised world.

Im not trying to be hostile or anything but I'm a double major in History and Japanese with a Psychology minor. Ive been studying East Asian and Western History in particular as well as Japan specifically with my universities professors. This is what ive learned from them, research, reading Korean and Chinese sources (3rd party perspective) and from reading the Nihon shoki/Kojiki (translated)

1. First, the Jomon were not purely hunter gathers by the time the Yayoi started arriving....they developed limited agriculture by then from the early immigrants who were small enough in number to be assimilated rather than conquering the Jomon. Your talking about the early jomon era when Japan was completely isolated and the Jomon had no contact with Koreans and Chinese explorers. In the later times the Yayoi started arriving in greater numbers from China (Xu Fu's expedition as well as villagers fleeing the wars in China at the time. these masses of people founded their own Yayoi kingdoms in japan, each trying to win dominance of the region over their other Yayoi neighbors as well as Jomon. ultimately tho, as u said it was the Yayoi culture that ultimately took over the Jomon not in war.

A popular theory is that Empress Consort Jingu was actually Queen Himiko and that the "land across the sea where riches lay" that she conquered was a Jomon chiefdom on Shikoku, not Korea. Also im quite certain there was conflict between the two peoples, at least to some degree.

The Yayoi did not just skirt around Jomon occupied areas. Most of them landed in Kyushu because that is the closest port from Korea and Jiangsu, China were they came from. They most likely had to battle the natives who occupied northern Kyushu and pushed them north into Honshu. They did not venture south because of mountainous terrain and the fact that the Kumaso ( a Malay or Polynesian peoples) already occupied it and repelled them time and time again. overtime the Jomon in the rest of Japan became Yayoi thru cultural imperialism....then in the 3rd century a massive invasion from the Baekje kingdom in Korea occurred and those peoples defeated Yamataikoku (a conglomerate of Yayoi kingdoms, a UN of ancient Japan if u will) and went on to subjugate the rest of Japan over the next millennia. The Japanese government will never recognize that becasue it would change the foundation of their identity as a people...however in Western academia (at least in America) its pretty accepted that Baekje did invade Japan mid 3rd century to become the dominant nation state.

Sometime between 250-270 in the Gaya Confederacy, Korea the younger brother of the King Mapun led a revolt against the King. This younger brother is named Ungjin or Homuda....King Mapun put down the insurrection and his brother, his troops and his people were forced to flee to Baekje in southwestern Korea. King Goi of Baekje was concerned about the mass influx of refugees from Gaya and told Ungjin to go to Wa (Japan) with his men and start a country there free from the clutches of his angry brother Mapun. So in 270 AD Ungjin led an invasion of Japan from Korea with his refugees and troops and defeated Yamataikoku and settled in the Yamato plain. The Japanese government wants to hide tha fact that Yamataikoku was conquered by Koreans so they wiped out Himikos name, history and made it look like Ojin was already present in Japan as a Japanese, where in reality he was from Korea. Anyway, Ungjin convinced Queen Iyo (Natsuka hime) to marry him after he defeated the native Wa-jin. His name was changed to Ojin and this was the start of the Kofun period- marked by large korean style tombs, the introduction of horses from Korea and a HUGE influx of people unexplainable by natural means and only by migration.

The Japanese want everyone to believe they have always been in the islands and ruled there since the beginning of time. They portray Yamato Japan as having had a good diplomatic relationship with Baekje, exchanging culture, writing, architecture and weapons in exchange for Japanese troops to aid Baekje in its conflicts with other Korean kingdoms. This is true to some extent, they were indeed allies and exchanged what I listed above, but what the japanese scholars hide is that they were originally from Korea as well....that is why they had a good diplomatic relationship with Baekje, they were a colony in the Japanese islands. Historians have ALWAYS pondered why Yamato Japan would throw its entire economy and armed forces into the Battle of Baekgang (Yamato and Baekje vs Silla and Tang, China), now we know its because Japan was a colony trying to re-capture its homeland from its enemies. It would be comparable to if the American colonies remained loyal to England....and England was invaded and taken over by France. The American colonies muster what armies and supplies it can and try to recapture Britain from France....that is an easier way to understand it.

The elaborate stories in the Kojiki describing Japans first gods and heros who conquered enemies and land were fanciful depictions of the first Yayoi generals conquering their territory from the natives. This is the leading theory because the Japanese have shown a tendancy to demonize their former enemies and subjects by giving them names such as "tsuchigumo" or Earth Spider, calling the Kumaso ppl Kumaso (Bear-like) and naming the Hayato, Hayato because it means "barking servant" or something like that (because the Hayao ppls made barking noises in celebration).


2. The Roman armies repeatedly made incursions into Germania but the Germans would simply melt into the forests and wait for the Romans to leave or ambush them. Rome couldnt get a foothold in Germania, they attempted to send a legion into the heart of Germania but were ambushed and anniahliated (Teutoburg Forest). After that the Romans fortified their borders on the Rhine, never to attempt more incursions.

I guess I should have been clearer on what I meant by genetic similiarities. Yes, the German people do share a number of the same genetics as other Western Europeans, those genes that came into Germany after the collapse of the Roman Empire. The reign of the Roman Empire was the last time in Europe that Greek, Italian, Iberian, Berber, Egyptian, Sarmation, Persian etc people were able to freely move about until the last few centuries due to the Dark Ages and the centuries of unification wars European countries waged AFTER the Dark Ages. (at least in mass numbers that would make a difference in genetic makeup). Germany did not recieve much if any Italian, Greek, Iberian, Egyptian, Berber, Persian etc genes that would be distributed throughout the Roman Empire in all other places.