[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by ryuurui

what you fail to understand is that we see it as lack of courage to say the truth to their friend, which in our eyes makes him appear not trust worthy. How can I realy on someone that can't be straight with me in casual situation. That is no friend, that is bs. It has nothing to do with being polite, but having no spine to say anything straight up.

The point I am trying to make is that it does NOT make the person shifty. It is not a sign of their lack of trustworthiness. It is a cultural quirk. It isn`t that they have no spine to say things directly - people just don`t say things directly.

And this issue goes very deep in Japanese culture, along with "saying things around" as it is "polite", which creates more problems that you could ever imagine.

Problems between who? People who both know and follow these rules of social interaction? Or between one person who does and one who doesn`t?

What kind of people are you surrounding yourself with? This is exactly what pisses me off in many people. Learn how to take the truth. You might just appreciate it in a long run.

The truth can be read without coming out and saying it directly. There are a thousand ways to convey the message. I am pretty happy with my circle of friends, so clearly am not having any problems.

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But how long do you go completely telling little white lies just to keep the peace with someone. If you dont really like the person enough to tell atleast SOME of your real emotions and thoughts then what the point of talking and being around that person.
I understand that it takes time to get to know someone but to always try to hide your emotions or thoughts from the person, your not trying to be a friend or future close friend at all that what i interpet it to be...

The thing is, they`re not white lies. The other person expects to be understood. The listener who is not accustomed to that sort of social interaction misinterprets the meaning based on the rules of social interaction that they are familiar with.
Something comparable would be, say, an inside joke. If inside your group of friends, saying A means B - someone from outside your group who hears A is going to take it to mean A. Not B, like all your other friends. Going from western social rules to Japanese rules is like this. You`ve just jumped into a group of people who have a ton of inside words and actions that you just don`t know. So you take things at face value and end up hurt when they don`t mean what you`d expected them to. But to everyone else, it was perfectly clear.

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I believe Nyororin understands how it is perceived by us, she's simply trying to explain how it's perceived by the other side.
I'm not sure if she's taking one side or the other to be honest, just being objective.

That`s pretty much the case. I don`t want to see either side bashed or raised up as being "the right way", as there is no RIGHT WAY. Social interaction is linked very strongly to culture. Something that seems frustrating to someone of one culture is perfectly normal to someone of another. People tend to have tunnel vision when it comes to cultural points that are as strongly ingrained as the interactions between friends, and are unable to see that even if it`s not the pattern they are accustomed to it is still valid.

Nyororin you said "I (Nyororin) think the biggest cultural difference is that you (James, or westerners) feel the need to get the truth on this kind of thing."
And I agree, this is something that's very difficult for westerners to get past, we've got it drilled in our head that any relationship without honest truth is junk.

I`m really glad that you got what I was trying to say there. Reading it over after posting left me wondering if it might not be misunderstood as some kind of shot at you (which it wasn`t). The thing is, the truth is there. It just isn`t said outright. If you`re used to it not being said outright, you are more attuned to subtle clues and can see the truth very clearly even if the other person doesn`t say it directly. I find that in most cases, saying it would be overkill. Think of a couple who are carrying bags with "Congratulations!" written on them, hugging and kissing, marveling at their new shiny rings, and talking about how strange it is for her to now have his last name. Would you need them to say "We just got married" to pick up on it?

That amazed me, why the hell even bother throwing tatemae out there when it's not necessary to do so? To appear as being nicer than they really are? To give me false hopes? In the long run they come off a lot worse than if they'd just kept their mouths shut.

Actually, this one doesn`t really hit me as a tatemae thing. I am pretty willing to guess that they really DID want to go. There is a whole bunch of stupid paperwork they have to go through telling them not to, under any circumstances, for ANY reason, take private lessons from a current or former teacher. All their tickets will be rendered invalid, and in some cases they will lose their lessons (but still have to pay for them). Nova got in trouble for this crap later on, but back years ago... It was to the level of losing 10+万 worth of lessons for just meeting with a teacher outside of the school.
With some of the crap I have heard Nova did, it wouldn`t surprise me if the lesson was taped and the students personally given a strong hint about what would happen if they went.
When it comes down to choosing a large lump of money or you, I am sure they would have felt awful outright saying that they`d choose the money. (Hence the pathetic excuses.)
This is not even mentioning that a relationship that has started as a money based exchange (teacher, etc) has a lot of trouble moving beyond that for many different reasons.

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it is deceitful to lead some one up the garden path. Too scared to be honest and to say No--Outright.

But what if everyone involved knows what is going on? I think the people who are giving the hint (that everyone else would get without question) but not saying it outright are going to be very surprised to have someone follow them up that garden path.

It isn`t a matter of deception. It`s a different way of interacting that is perceived that way when pushed to line up with the western style of interaction. I think that most people in Japan would be absolutely shocked to hear that their "normal" way of interacting was hurtful to someone - that is not what is intended at all.