[Umihito]

Originally Posted by RealJames

kind of... yeah, actually...

Yeah, I agree. I was just seeing what the response would be.

Originally Posted by RickOShay

So you think that humans have no moral compass? We are just like the animals? All instincts and survival...no compassion, love, critical reasoning?

Basically, yeah. For the majority at least, just like many other things. Only humans can screw up our own planet and not even be bothered to change our petty luxuries when it concerns our future.
If we didn't exist, animals would be MUCH better caretakers of the planet.
I know that may be straying a bit, but I'm just using that as an example of our 'moral compass' as humanity as a whole.

I don't believe in 'love' and such. I've seen countless examples of people breaking truly meaningful relationships because they can't have sex for whatever reason. All human mental 'complexities' derive from basic primal instincts in my experience.

Originally Posted by RickOShay

Ever heard of oh.. let's say.. the bubonic plague? If so.. you would just be okay with rats running rampant carrying fleas that kill thousands of people with a deadly disease, sorry.. but once again I value the lives of people over animals. And I apologize to you that I would pick your life over that of a rats... will you ever forgive me??

I would look for all possible alternatives we have in our modern day to save those rats before culling them. If it came to it, then I'd have to reluctantly accept it has to be done, but like I said, with modern day advancements, we could surely find a cure for such things, and killing them because they're just lesser species is VERY human isn't it.
The rats were innocent in the whole thing, and had no option in the matter. Other comparisons come to mind. If a human carried something that could spread, he/she'd be put into quarantine and have ALL possible methods done to keep him/her alive, no matter what the cost. But a rat? Nah, lets just kill every single one because they're not worth the mighty human's effort.

And no I wouldn't forgive, because I'd expect you to respect my human free will and save the animal over me. I know how strange it must sound to you, but I am just very deeply passionate on the subject.

Originally Posted by RickOShay

Last time I checked brain dead people do not necessarily carry deadly diseases..

Nor do all animals. Although, I think I understand what you mean now by pest; animals that infect and kill humans.

Originally Posted by RickOShay

If you want to believe that the lives of animals are just as or more important than humans, that is fine, but I will say again I am glad that most of the world does not think this way.. and I am sure the people in Tohoku right now are glad that the people in charge are focusing their attention on them and not a bunch of cows.

I know, and I know that my ideals would never be accepted or even considered. I'm passionate about the subject, but not disillusioned.
I do remember seeing the images of Japanese people carrying their pets with them for dear life. All I say is, if it was a field of their pets, or maybe your pets, facing an horrific death, would you think differently?

Originally Posted by RobinMask

At the risk of a morality debate, are you seriously saying it's okay to hurt a person because they hurt someone/something else? If so, and you're okay with stooping to their level and being somewhat hypocritical regarding how inflicting pain is wrong, then how do you judge what level of retaliation is appropriate? Also - in this specific case - how do you justify causing pain to other family members, and disrespecting the remains of an eldery woman who is innocent?

Sure, I will admit being somewhat hypocritical here. But yes, I am seriously suggesting that an eye for an eye is true justice, and I don't mind stooping to their level one bit to see the animals avenged.
Yes, your example case is very subjective, and bringing innocent family members into it is something I wouldn't like. When you only mentioned the guy in your original post, I assumed that no one else was involved, just him and the grandma. But only something that drastic and close to his heart can drive it home to him. Sure, you can trash his house to a pulp, vandalize his car, but all that is something that can be gotten over. Only something that deeply personal to him can truly bring him to the animal's level of physical suffering. Don't forget, animals truly hate losing family as much as humans.

Originally Posted by RobinMask

On a less subjective note, I would rather test medicines initially on animals than on people. There's been many cases with humans being critically injured, disabled or killed for having volunteered to test drugs. I would rather test on animals, specifically vermin and pests, because - as mentioned - they harbour diseases and the like and are more of a plague to mankind than a benefit, and that way test on humans when I have a relative idea that it's safe to. Yes, I also value humans more than animals. Like RickOShay said, I would 99% of the time choose a human life over that of an animals, if your mother and your pet rat were both dying and you could only choose one, which would you pick? Final comment, yes, testing on rats alone would be stupid, but, as I said, surely it's better to test on them initially before moving onto humans?

I realise this is a very subjective, emotive argument, but I really think there's little else to be said that other members haven't already said, and much more eloquently too.

A fairly uniform counter to what you said there, but animal's immune systems are SO much different to human's, that any medicines that work on animals will probably not transfer to people, nullifying most results. Plus, I would deeply oppose any treatment offered to me that has roots in animal testing. I know, that's a lot. Good job I've never had to go to hospital in my life so far.

As to the mother / rat thing, believe it or not my mother and I have both had this discussion. We both (VERY seriously) agreed that the rat would be saved ahead of her, even if it meant her dying. It may sound crazy... even having that conversation, but that's how deeply we care for animals.

Agreed, I think if I say anymore I'll be labeled as a psycho (if I haven't been already), and I've said all I can say. I know I'm in a minority with my views, and everyone else greatly value humans more. And although I would strongly debate that in my own circumstances, it won't go very far. I just wanted to voice my opinion at the start, because when I saw the majority of responses, it's something I just felt a strong drive to do.