@ Tenchu:

As always, I find your views on Man's Heart a little extreme....

Personally, I would admire a man who was willing to wait in three feet of shit for hours on end to achieve his goal. Someone who was that determined to accomplish their goal deserves respect. I mean, seriously... how many would be willing to stand in shite all day to commit an act that would take but a few seconds?

Now, I DO understand what you're saying (we've been around about it before). What I'm disagreeing with this time is the assumption that because an assassin had to resort to such measures he is somehow less of a man than another.

To me, it's sort of like... say it's a battle. You have the chance to flank the enemy and attack from behind and end the battle quickly with fewer casualties, but because of an extension of the idea that stabbing a man in the back is dishonourable, you refuse to take the opportunity and lose the battle.

Not how I said "extension of the idea". The idea itself is a great one--I don't like cheapshots at the onset any more'n the next guy, but if shit has already hit the fan and the other guy does something stupid, that's your opening ^_^ .

So, that ninja that waited in filth deserves a little respect. He might not have had what you define as a heart of stone, but he did have iron determination. Also, I'd like to know what the ninja himself thought...

Oh, I know! "It sure stinks in here!" Oh, but I meant besides that ^_^;;; .

There is the other view of this story. Take two warriors, one samurai and one ninja. Both have sworn service to the daimyo. They are both to defeat the enemy. A samurai's code of honor and sense of self respect would not allow him to kill the enemy lord. The ninja is willing to sacrifice his humility to carryout his oath to the daimyo.

It is my understanding, that among the many rules the ninja followed the two most important were keeping secret his clan and his daimyo. This was to keep his personal disgrace from falling to those he had taken an oath.

So the ninja is willing to sacrifice his honor, for the sake of his promise. The samurai will break his promise to save his honor.

that is why i said in a battle the samurai has the upper hand.
when fighting with out stealth the ninja has no chance against the samurai, since samurai not only fight in kendo style with swords, but they use aikido which they can counter any attack imaginable. ninjas and their ninpo and kata are useless in face to face confrontations.

the shinobi's only strength is stealth..and speed..

yes a master swords man can always outdo his enemies...
but in general no one can counter an unseen attack done with speed.

in other words.
a samurai's virtue and honor code is more appealing and greater in value.

the ninjas have greater chances in surviving and winning a battle...but they have o problem using every filthy, wicked,disgraceful method to do so.

again i am not generalizing...ninjas were clans some who were mercenaries ...some who pledged to lords. some who had independent villages where they used their skills to protect it..
some samurai were cowards and only enjoyed the title samurai for self praising and to be superior over villagers. cowards who were pierced from the back (running away)..not every samurai is Musashi ..
and not every ninja is hatori hanzo

I'm not trying to take this thread to far off topic, but it reminds me of a report I once read about the Japanese invasion of Korea in the late 1500's. It was called the Imjin waeran or Japanese War of Imjin.

Hideyoshi was daimyo of the newly unified Japan. In 1587 he sent a test force into Korea, and concluded they were incompetent. The Koreans quickly determined the attack came from samurai and not the Japanese pirates that had plagued them for decades.

They were able to tell because samurai would not kill a man unless he faced them, therefore most of the wounds were from the front. Pirates would kill a man from any direction

Samurai did not have any more heart than ninja. Yes, a ninja could beat a samurai in a fair fight. It depends on the skill of each fighter and not profession. Some samurai could use aikido or something to that nature but so could ninja. The history goes that a Chinese monk taught shoalin to esoteric monks and warriors in the mountains of Iga. I don't know how this myth about samurai being so honorable got around. Samurai could be very low sometimes killing someone just because they said the wrong thing, chopping a guys head off then saying kirisutegomen. You definitely wouldn't want to be a farmer or a merchant back then. You also could not carry a sword back then unless you are samurai so nobody else was stupid enough to out in open with a sword including ninja. There are claims that some ninja had premonitions into the future. Discovery Channel did a documentary with CIA remote viewers which... you just have to see it.

The samurai also killed a lot of the Ainu in Hokkaido.