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-   -   Creativity and Morality (https://www.japanforum.com/forum/general-discussion/21851-creativity-morality.html)

ivi0nk3y 12-22-2008 01:31 PM
This will host an off-topic discussion from another thread on creativity and morality.

There should be no insults and no religious talk.

-MMM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM (Post 647737)
I don't want to nit-pick, but you said it shouldn't be made in the first place. That's the same as banning. Now you are saying it shouldn't be available for teens, which is different. Rated-R movies can only be see at 17 and under with an adult consent.
I don't think I got my point across here.

If we lived in a moral society, there would never be a need to regulate such "creativity". It would be a natural reaction to know what was right and wrong and the few people who would try and promote their trash, would find it hard to release their "creativity" anywhere.
If there was a niche market for it, it would stay a niche market because the large majority of people would find it wrong to view obscene materials.
They would be wise to know what it meant for society as a whole.
The majority attitude to this topic, is a vivid example to how far gone from that kind of society we are.
Of course people can pretend that they wouldn't like to live in that sort of society but really, its just because they're so immersed in todays crap which fuels their basic desires that they don't wanna look beyond what they have around them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM (Post 647737)
What is crude? I think we have spread ourselves a little thin on what media we are discussing.
Its not spread thin at all. I always said "media" from the beginning and Manga is a form of media itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM (Post 647737)
I don't think I twisted anything. You said teens aren't responsible enough to deal with stories about teen sex, romance, etc. I said I wholly disagree.
Yes, teens aren't responsible enough because it is human nature not to be at that age. Kids are forced into such situations and are very unhappy about it later on in their lives, if not at that moment in time.
For example I wouldn't give them guns or things that are "unfit for teens" to handle because you would not trust them with their use. I wouldn't let a teen drive my car or trust him/her to take care of something which meant a lot to me.
Is it cos I hate teens because they are pompous little hormone soaked sponges of grease?
No, it is because they are not responsible since by and large, they have not had enough experience to be responsible enough.

As for twisting my words, I answered your scenario, which very frequently forces a whole story of words into peoples mouths. Therefore I did not explain my point clearly, which was evident when I said that "i'll bring it up at a later point if needs be".
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM (Post 647737)
How can you say a manga or movie isn't a creative process. Of course, every creator wants success, but the manga I mentioned are not cookie-cutter pornos. They are creative things going on there. "American Pie" is a teen comedy movie...not a porno. There is a creative process and creativity going on there.
Lol there is nothing creative about American Pie or anything similar. The only thing somewhat creative about it is the way it is directed and edited for the screen. I was using Pornos as an extreme example but really, some of the crap that goes on in full view these days is soft core porn.

Could it be that you seem to equate how outlandish something is with creativity? Or is it more creative because it sold a lot of movie tickets and DVDs?

I dunno, I think that would be popularity, not creativity.

The same goes with Manga. It is creative in its artwork but it is nothing new so not at all original in its creativity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM (Post 647737)
So creative things are OK, but things made to make money are not? How do you regulate that?
Oo there's that regulate word again.

Not everything is made to make money. Some of the best creativity in history has come from artists who didn't expect a dime in return. They did it because they were truly creative.
Just like these rock stars today, (for example). Most of the garbage being churned out comes from people who want to live the life of a "rock star", not because they love the music.
Where's the creativity in that?
Its exactly the same for the majority of media out there, including Manga.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM (Post 647738)
People said the EXACT SAME THING in the 90s, and the 80s, and the 70s, and the 60s...welcome to getting old...
And they were right. :)

DeathnoteCrazy102 12-22-2008 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y (Post 649203)
I don't think I got my point across here.

If we lived in a moral society, there would never be a need to regulate such "creativity". It would be a natural reaction to know what was right and wrong and the few people who would try and promote their trash, would find it hard to release their "creativity" anywhere.
If there was a niche market for it, it would stay a niche market because the large majority of people would find it wrong to view obscene materials.
They would be wise to know what it meant for society as a whole.
The majority attitude to this topic, is a vivid example to how far gone from that kind of society we are.
Of course people can pretend that they wouldn't like to live in that sort of society but really, its just because they're so immersed in todays crap which fuels their basic desires that they don't wanna look beyond what they have around them.



Its not spread thin at all. I always said "media" from the beginning and Manga is a form of media itself.



Yes, teens aren't responsible enough because it is human nature not to be at that age. Kids are forced into such situations and are very unhappy about it later on in their lives, if not at that moment in time.
For example I wouldn't give them guns or things that are "unfit for teens" to handle because you would not trust them with their use. I wouldn't let a teen drive my car or trust him/her to take care of something which meant a lot to me.
Is it cos I hate teens because they are pompous little hormone soaked sponges of grease?
No, it is because they are not responsible since by and large, they have not had enough experience to be responsible enough.

As for twisting my words, I answered your scenario, which very frequently forces a whole story of words into peoples mouths. Therefore I did not explain my point clearly, which was evident when I said that "i'll bring it up at a later point if needs be".


Lol there is nothing creative about American Pie or anything similar. The only thing somewhat creative about it is the way it is directed and edited for the screen. I was using Pornos as an extreme example but really, some of the crap that goes on in full view these days is soft core porn.

Could it be that you seem to equate how outlandish something is with creativity? Or is it more creative because it sold a lot of movie tickets and DVDs?

I dunno, I think that would be popularity, not creativity.

The same goes with Manga. It is creative in its artwork but it is nothing new so not at all original in its creativity.



Oo there's that regulate word again.

Not everything is made to make money. Some of the best creativity in history has come from artists who didn't expect a dime in return. They did it because they were truly creative.
Just like these rock stars today, (for example). Most of the garbage being churned out comes from people who want to live the life of a "rock star", not because they love the music.
Where's the creativity in that?
Its exactly the same for the majority of media out there, including Manga.



And they were right. :)
u guys are the smartest people ive ever met...holy crap i couldnt of had a conversation like that without blowing up...

Bureda 12-22-2008 07:01 PM
Quote:
Oo there's that regulate word again.

Not everything is made to make money. Some of the best creativity in history has come from artists who didn't expect a dime in return. They did it because they were truly creative.
Just like these rock stars today, (for example). Most of the garbage being churned out comes from people who want to live the life of a "rock star", not because they love the music.
Where's the creativity in that?
Its exactly the same for the majority of media out there, including Manga.
That was then. We are in now
.
Look at all the movie releases, how many of them contain innuendos of a sexual nature? almost all of them.

We live in a society where our youngsters are raised to be free, so free that they ovulate with one another without knowing its true purposes. Sex is just for fun. Who's to say otherwise. The media says so, the journalists says so. There's even guides on how to stay safe and pick up girls, there's free condoms everywhere.

Every genre of media is corrupt by the essence of getting vagina.

We need to go back to the basics. If the society leaders really gave two shits about us as a population they would easily clamp down on anything illegal.

So all in all everything in today's age IS done for money.

"Here's free condoms, here's free club entries, go spend, go screw, get HIV and pay thousands to the government so we can pretend to heal you"

This thread is turning out to be some real bullshit. What the fuck are we arguing with one another. Form a mutual understanding and escape from the brainwashing.

There's morals. Don't do something you don't want others to do to you. Everyone has been a child at some point, they know how frail and easily manipulated they are. Respect to be respected.

MMM 12-22-2008 07:23 PM
ivi0nk3y, we are on different planets on this one.

Of course it wouldn't be regulation if everyone thought the same way, but that is a fantasy world.

And if you can't see creativity in the media, then we have no common ground to stand on.

I understand holding yourself to high moral standards. That is an good thing. But considering everything that doesn't meet my standard as essentially worthless is a little naive.

You can set standards for yourself, but you can't set standards for others and not call it censorship or regulation.

ThirdSight 12-22-2008 07:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y (Post 649203)
Lol there is nothing creative about American Pie or anything similar. The only thing somewhat creative about it is the way it is directed and edited for the screen. I was using Pornos as an extreme example but really, some of the crap that goes on in full view these days is soft core porn.
This is where I stopped, because I think that's all the stupidity my brain could handle. But you're right of course: the actors, writers, director, editers, and even cameramen in the production of films like this aren't creative at all.
/sarcasm
Please think before you talk. If these pieces of media weren't creative, they'd be documentaries; it's the only other category that our simplistic american minds can stick stuff like this.

Back on topic, which is, from what I can grasp at this point, what constitues as creativity concerning borderline material. Here's a converstation between someone attempting to catch an author of a rather risky piece of fiction/manga/whathaveyou:

"It's illegal to show children in sexual acts."
"Define children."
"Under the age of 18."
"Oh, she's 18, but suffers from a magical disease that causes her to look young at night."
"I didn't know that. My mistake."

So, um, besides owning risky material like this, what's the problem again?

ivi0nk3y 12-22-2008 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdSight (Post 649339)
This is where I stopped, because I think that's all the stupidity my brain could handle.
Kudos to you for being able to comprehend as far as you did. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdSight (Post 649339)
But you're right of course: the actors, writers, director, editers, and even cameramen in the production of films like this aren't creative at all.
/sarcasm
Ah you seem to be the professional movie go-er who knows everything that happens behind the scenes of a movie. Thus you seem to have taken offense at something totally irrelevant.
:(
I hope you get over it.
:)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdSight (Post 649339)
Please think before you talk. If these pieces of media weren't creative, they'd be documentaries; it's the only other category that our simplistic american minds can stick stuff like this.
Ok so there's two types of media. Creative and Documentaries.

*writes this down*

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdSight (Post 649339)
Back on topic..
Really, I didn't realise you were on topic to begin with. o.O

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdSight (Post 649339)
..which is, from what I can grasp at this point, what constitues as creativity concerning borderline material. Here's a converstation between someone attempting to catch an author of a rather risky piece of fiction/manga/whathaveyou:

"It's illegal to show children in sexual acts."
"Define children."
"Under the age of 18."
"Oh, she's 18, but suffers from a magical disease that causes her to look young at night."
"I didn't know that. My mistake."

So, um, besides owning risky material like this, what's the problem again?
From that entire post, your point was that my definition of "creativity" needs some brushing up.
Alrighty.
Lets put it this way. The writing of movies and their content, sucks ass.
Compared to older stuff, this trash has little meaning and little "creativity" in what thought goes into it.
Creativity to me goes hand in hand with originality of content.
The only real area where movies shine now is the glossing which editors and so on do. (That would be the large list of jobs you typed earlier and which I decided to summarise in my earlier post, at which you seem to have taken offense.)
Most movies that Hollywood produces are actually shit, for want of a better word. If you don't think so, then you are an extremely more generous person than I. :)
Either way, this is not a debate about how shit Hollywood has become in its creative content but how, in a drive to gain more money, the creativity in content has suffered. The same can be said for Manga.
Therefore, in an effort to sell more, there is lewd and sexual content produced since this sells.
While I explained earlier that the artwork still holds creativity, the content doesn't.

I hope that clears things up for you old bean. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM (Post 649327)
ivi0nk3y, we are on different planets on this one.

Of course it wouldn't be regulation if everyone thought the same way, but that is a fantasy world.

And if you can't see creativity in the media, then we have no common ground to stand on.

I understand holding yourself to high moral standards. That is an good thing. But considering everything that doesn't meet my standard as essentially worthless is a little naive.

You can set standards for yourself, but you can't set standards for others and not call it censorship or regulation.
However you take my morals, is your prerogative. Those, like you pointed out, are my standards. If that automatically means that I find your standards worthless, then so be it.
It wasn't my intention however.

I only know that I don't want my kids growing up in this type of filthy society. :)

I wonder if you can get broadband on one of those fancy desert islands these days..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bureda (Post 649325)
That was then. We are in now
.
Look at all the movie releases, how many of them contain innuendos of a sexual nature? almost all of them.

We live in a society where our youngsters are raised to be free, so free that they ovulate with one another without knowing its true purposes. Sex is just for fun. Who's to say otherwise. The media says so, the journalists says so. There's even guides on how to stay safe and pick up girls, there's free condoms everywhere.

Every genre of media is corrupt by the essence of getting vagina.

We need to go back to the basics. If the society leaders really gave two shits about us as a population they would easily clamp down on anything illegal.

So all in all everything in today's age IS done for money.

"Here's free condoms, here's free club entries, go spend, go screw, get HIV and pay thousands to the government so we can pretend to heal you"

This thread is turning out to be some real bullshit. What the fuck are we arguing with one another. Form a mutual understanding and escape from the brainwashing.

There's morals. Don't do something you don't want others to do to you. Everyone has been a child at some point, they know how frail and easily manipulated they are. Respect to be respected.
Hmm.

This "discussion" is going on because people have their opinions on this particular thread and the issues it raises.

The fact everything is done for money, is the point i'm making and the fact that it causes certain problems.
That may be how things are now but somehow that doesn't automatically mean its right and should be accepted.

Arikado 12-23-2008 12:18 AM
*Scents a lot of "holier-than-thou" in the air*

Ready to stop with this ridiculously off-topic "discussion?" Morals morals morals, what ever the hell does the world care about them? Morals don't do jack sh*t for society because hardly anybody takes heed of them. I like that you're strong on your moral standards, ivi0nk3y, and the world needs more people with that type of attitude, but you're derailing the train. And not just you, but others who are fueling the flames. In my eyes, this has become a very personalized argument, and I think it needs to be toned down to a more civilized level before all hope of decency crumbles.

Bureda 12-23-2008 12:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arikado (Post 649444)
*Scents a lot of "holier-than-thou" in the air*

Ready to stop with this ridiculously off-topic "discussion?" Morals morals morals, what ever the hell does the world care about them? Morals don't do jack sh*t for society because hardly anybody takes heed of them. I like that you're strong on your moral standards, ivi0nk3y, and the world needs more people with that type of attitude, but you're derailing the train. And not just you, but others who are fueling the flames. In my eyes, this has become a very personalized argument, and I think it needs to be toned down to a more civilized level before all hope of decency crumbles.
The world does care about morals. You get rude to me? I return the favour. you respect me. I respect you.

There's no holy-business here. We are no saints. I think you're misreading the messages.

Ivonmonkey. Money rules, money is legal tender, it means its worthless, therefore a human's a mere slave. Money is king. You cannot get far in a society that relies on money. Especially in an environment like the UK.

Anyway, enough with socio-economics.

I r bored of repetition.

Arikado 12-23-2008 12:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bureda (Post 649452)
The world does care about morals. You get rude to me? I return the favour. you respect me. I respect you.

There's no holy-business here. We are no saints. I think you're misreading the messages.
Those aren't the same morals in discussion. That's just logic.

And I did hear something about "holy-business." Some of, "I have higher standards than you," and, "You don't believe this? *eye rolling ensues*."

To much eye rolling in this world. No more elitist bullsh*t.

ivi0nk3y 12-23-2008 01:46 AM
Lol you can call it morals, a holier than thou attitude or elitest bullshit. That is your own guilty conscious coming into effect though for some reason or another. What makes you think you can't be the same and live by the same morals or standards? Would it make you elitest if you did so? Is it that you disagree with what I say?

Anyway, I never said I was better than anyone else. I just have a sense of justice and i'll play the devils advocate if I have to, to get a point across.

Like I said, this is the topic of discussion. Its not derailing because its to do with what this thread is about.
I said it a few times and i'll say it again. The man shouldn't be sent to prison for 20 years because so many other people do it and because it is everywhere. To send him to prison is hypocrisy.
That is where the discussion I was having, comes into effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bureda (Post 649452)
Ivonmonkey. Money rules, money is legal tender, it means its worthless, therefore a human's a mere slave. Money is king. You cannot get far in a society that relies on money. Especially in an environment like the UK.
The key word here should be moderation. If there was moderation, I would have very little to back up what i've been saying.
Yes money exists and its a fact.
Turning it into a God however.. it must be the most indirect deity ever. One which causes all sorts of emotions and feelings through material gain but can never directly help you.


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