What is Japan's additiue to its modern history?
 

I hope I do not touch a soft point by mentioning the issues, subjects and historical events further in this post, and offending any Japanese fellow on the board. I am sorry if I am offending anyone in advance.

How does the Japanese education system protray the Empire of Japan? I am especially interested in the way the Japanese expansions, wars and atrocities are presented. For a more specific instance, how does it present the Japanese occupation of the shores of China and the establishing of puppet states? How does it present - if it does - the Nanking Massacare?

How are Emparor Hirohito, Dougles McArthor (and the American occupation of Japan), Hideki Tōjō, the A-Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki presented?

Again, I am very sorry if this post will hurt anyone, and it is very understandable if it will.

Of course, I made a horrible spelling error at the thread's title. Please fix it. Thanks.

Good question. I'm interested in this also.

I've observed some Japanese's attitudes towards the A-bombings -- and America in general. Of course, there are some understandabale opinions out there; however, there are also some that intrigued me: some didn't seem to care as much as I expected, showing little concern. I don't know whether it's because they don't understand the importance of the topics or at the point where they've accepted and moved on?
Similarly, there have been some instances where it seemed I knew more about Japanese history than a Japanese did, which I found suprising.

In retrospect, however, I guess since I don't know a lot about Australian or American history (I was raised in both AUS and USA - born in AUS), this may be similar in Japan?

They probably understand what happened, I mean how could you not. However, to them, because it feels like those events had no effect on their lives today, they probably just grew a tolerance or simply a lack of care.

I think generally they are ashamed of it.

But my impression is that in general they don't buy the Americans/Allies = good guys versus Japanese/German = bad guys narrative that comes out of America.

The reasons for the rise of nationalism following WW1 prior to WW2 in both Japan and Germany is a lesson as important for the world to learn as the results of such nationalism.

I would most appriciate some comments from the Japanese members :)

Well, from what I know they are pretty much apologist to when they discuss the American occupation of Japan.

And by the way, what do the Japanese people in general think of the fact their military was shrank and about the fact there is an American military presence in Japan, especially after the cases of rapes by American soldiers of teenage Japanese girls?

When I went to Hiroshima I had a few 'deep' conversation with some people at the museum -- but it was all really neutral... The only point they kept making was how terrible atomic-warfare is, not really bashing any particular side.


But the museum was overwhelming bias; it had those dramatic sculptures with the melting flesh, and those ridiculously enlarged photos of burns and open wounds. The atrocities committed by America were made pretty obvious, but not quite the other way around.


I'm curious to see what the teachers on the board think - maybe they've had some experience/witnessed a Japanese history lesson? :D

I stayed with a host family in 2007, and the rape was big news at this point.


The family was really open about it, but made it clear that it wasn't necessary for them to have a base in Okinawa; especially because they've been raising hell for a long time.

The only reason there is an American military presence in Japan is to deter North Korea and China from doing anything aggressive against Japan.

Hmm... people still believe half of this? China is no threat against Japan and South Korea.

It's just North Korea that is the problem.

I think a well placed carrier would do just as well as any army base. It's not like China or whoever is going to sneak into Japan and blow the crap out of it like the Japanese did to Pearl Habor(I don't mean to make light of that). It seems more paranoia than anything that is keeping the base there.

The Chinese military officials have made frequent liaisons with the Japanese SDF approximately a decade ago with positive results.

China is not in a position to conduct a large conventional warfare against its neighbors today.

I don't know why China is always the blame when most of the people in the West don't know anything much about China.

No one is constantly blaming China here, komitsuki. I am pretty certain China does pose a serious threat to Japan. Of course that China will not side North Korea in case it will decide to attack South Korea, Japan or the US - but it still is a threat on its own.

What I do know about China, I'm not a big fan of. Such as the public execution of a woman. Not to mention the whole blocking of web sites during the Olympics and the current block of Youtube.

It seems that the Japanese have yet to express true sorrow for their wartime wrongs. I don't think that in any Japanese history class, Japan's war crimes are ever mentioned. Japan's relations with China and South Korea became strained further when in 2005, the PM visited Yasukuni Shrine, and a history textbook was released which glossed over Japan's war crimes, including the "Rape of Nanjing".
I think every Japanese citizen MUST visit Nanjing at least once in their lifetime to learn about the horrible actions their military commited against Nanjing's civilians in 1937. You can NEVER try to whitewash history, no matter how shameful it is. At least 300,000 Chinese were raped and murdered during the massacre; some Japanese historians say it was a lot less, others even denied it happened. And let's face it; Nazi Germany murdered over 6 million Jews, the Empire of Japan murdered 10 million Chinese. Germany punished their own war criminals, America punished Japan's. Germany have officially apologised and payed compensation for their atrocities, Japan never has. In the German educational system, all students MUST learn about Nazi war crimes and visit a concentration camp at least once; the Japanese system hardly (if ever) does anything like that. Germany and Israel have good relations with each other, Japan and China (as well as North AND South Korea) don't really. Jews and Israelis generally like Germans today, many Chinese (and Koreans) still hate Japanese people. JAPAN, WAKE THE FUCK UP AND ADMIT YOUR GUILT!!!:mad:
Apart from that though, I still love Japan. The people are one of the nicest and friendliest I've ever met, and their exports (technology and food etc.) are awesome. I just wish that the Japanese knew the truth about what happened in Nanjing...

Sorry, then why is your tone very much about blaming China?

Then why did the Chinese military conducted numerous liaisons with the Japanese SDF without expressing any serious offenses?

Taiwan turned pro-Beijing thanks to President Ma. Can't complain about that.

South Korea and Japan are the VIP investors for the Chinese economy. Thinking that China is a regional threat is nonsense.

China is just slowly improving. You don't want a radical change in the society or else it will become a disaster.

WTF? I don't see China as a threat to Japan. China don't hate Japan that much. Probably North Korea is the biggest threat to Japan, but it's highly unlikely war will happen again in Japan.

I just want their government to be honest with their people and tell them what is really going on. Not "sheltering" them.

@Hennaz, Japan will probably never do that because then the country as a whole would have to "loose face" in order to do that.

I think a some of you are operating under misguided notions. It feels like you want to hold the Japanese to some higher shame for their history then we expect of other nations and cultures. Why should every Japanese citizen have his nose rubbed in the shame of his ancestors when we certainly don't expect that of American, English, Italian, German, Greek, Russian, etc. citizen.

What expression of wartime sorrows are you expecting? At what poing are we allowed to pull ourselves from the mud and move forward?

You do know that China is the biggest users of proxy softwares in the world, right?

I see South Korea as a huger threat to its people than China. Just look at the media and internet policies made by "2mb" and his cronies for example.

Thank goodness that Japan isn't doing this.

komitsuki,
If you think my tone was with some sort of an anti-Chinese sentiment then you are mistaking. I am no expert on the Syno-Japanese relations, and frankly I am quite ignorant about it. But, from what I read in some articles reviewing the Syno-Japanese relations, a hostilaty between the two is presented. Of course it could be very possible all this have changed, or there was no real hostilaty in the first place, I do not know. In any case, since I am ignorant on the subject I feel not urgent will to try and even prove my alleged fact.

I am sorry this thread was derailed like this. Anyway, back on topic.

MMM,
I do not know about others, but I don't think that the Japanese people should be ashamed for crimes commited by some of their ancestors. I was posting this thread from a position of true ignorance and a will to know the answeres for what I've asked.

I heard someone explain about the relationship Japan has with other Asian countries like S. Korea and China (among others), and how there is a general dislike for the Japanese in these countries. During the explanation, the speaker said something similar to "It's not that the Koreans or Chinese people hate the Japanese people, it's that they hate the Japanese attitude. They don't seem to be doing enough to take responsibility for the horrible acts their country committed in the past, acting as if nothing happened."
Apparently this explanation was well received, and I can relate to it to a certain degree. However, it leads me to ask the question... What difference it will make if Japan did more openly expressed it's sorrow towards Korea, China, Philippines, (etc.)? I don't foresee any big gain as a result of it -- other than pride. I think this is similar to the issue of some African-Americans' attitudes towards the "white man". How long do modern day Caucasian people have to take responsibility for the actions of their ancestors? I can understand their argument to a certain point, and I do acknowledge the fact that racism exists even today, but it can get ridiculous sometimes.

I find it all kind of childish. Perhaps I'm just naive.

Are we talking about the Japanese citizen's "attitude" or the attitude of the government?

95%+ of foreigners in Japan are Chinese and S. Korean. Korean TV stars have their own rack at the magazine and book store. Japanese stars are also popular in Korea, and many Chinese and Korean stars visit Japan regularly to promote movies and albums and vice versa. You really see pride come out during Asian sporting events, but I think for the most part the younger generations of Asians are looking forward.

I hope for a well-managed international co-operation after the American influence leaves East Asia for good. Of course, avoid the pre-1945 Japanese example like a plague.

It's a very good counterbalance against the Western World. :)

I am not sure what you mean. Americans aren't leaving East Asia any time soon.

That`s because it`s a museum about what happened in Hiroshima. Not a museum about the war in general. I wouldn`t expect them to make a display about anything but the most basic bits of the war (to add context to the event) - as that is not the meaning of the museum. The people who suffered there were mostly innocent people, sure, part of a huge war, and something inevitable - but blaming the majority of those who died in Hiroshima for something certain troops far away were doing is beyond unfortunate.

Ah, the great urban legend rears it`s ugly head.
The war, with a mention of "some terrible things were done by our army" - is in 2nd grade history textbooks (1st grade doesn`t do national history - only local, of the town, etc). 3rd grade hits on the invasion of China. 4th has censored photos and a full two pages dedicated to war crimes. 5th has more, and 6th has an additional pamphlet to be covered in a special class.
Middle school is even more in depth, but starts in depth into world history so things get thinner for a while.
High school has a full year dedicated to WWII, with uncensored photos, chapters about the Rape of Nanjing, Unit 731, comfort women, mass killings, etc and a HUGE emphasis on how horrible this was.

Anyone who says that Japan does not teach this has never seen a real Japanese textbook that is in USE in schools. I was personally surprised on how much was covered in a 4th grade textbook. I have a feeling parents in the US would be suing the school if the textbooks showed such pics and had such explicit language in high school - let alone 4th grade.

There is MORE content on the atrocities of the war than there is about what happened to Japan during the war.

The urban legend of it being glossed over comes from a certain group making and publishing a "textbook". ANYONE can make a textbook. I could write one up with lessons about people being born from eggs, etc etc and have it published if I had the money. That does not mean any school would use it. Private schools choose their textbooks, and as far as I know, only one or two tiny private schools have chosen to use that textbook (total of <200 students) as it does not fit into the national curriculum. In the end, even those students will have to be tested on the material, so will be forced to learn it elsewhere.
All the other normal schools use a set of textbooks that are very clear, very explicit, and very in depth.

ETA; All those examples of "We asked some people on the street, and they`d never even heard of it!" are IDIOTS to begin with. It`s on the same level of those shows where they go around and ask everyone the most simple questions and people can`t answer. It would be sort of on the level of asking someone in the US "Have you ever heard of Pearl Harbor, or Hiroshima?" and having absolutely no clue.

(It`s been a couple years since I looked through all of this, but I`m fairly certain I`m right about the grades.)

Thank you for the education, Nyororin.

I can't say for sure, but I believe he was referring to the attitudes of the general people, including politicians; a combination of both citizens and the government. It's similar, in nature, to a conspiracy theory, but not quite the same thing -- if that makes sense.

I agree, it doesn't immediately seem like there is any significant hatred between the countries, especially judging from the booming Entertainment Industry. Which is why I was somewhat confused by the whole notion.

Reading comprehension: I talked about East Asia since you mentioned about it. Hence, "I hope for a well-managed international co-operation in EAST ASIA"

That's what they always say...

Agreed. Although the majority of the Japanese education system does the right thing, the very very vocal and minority 右翼 members seems to take up most of the air time with their dodgy textbooks, which is used by like 0.1% of all the schools in Japan.

From the Chinese perspective, textbooks are centralised in PRC, all schools uses the same textbooks. So by assumption, everyone also thinks that these dodgy text books beat up by the extremists in Japan will be distributed to ALL schools in Japan, hence the over-reaction.

So hennaz, give it a break well you.

Just FYI, Sino-Japanese relationships are warming. There are sticky issues but if Sino-Japanese relationships survived for 2000 years, longer than the history of US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand combined, I'm sure it can survive another 2000 years more.

And to be frank, I don't think Japanese people even care about history, too preoccupied with Gucci, LV, make up and gourmet these days. Of course they are all told how terrible war is so I guess we should just move on.

(But of course you always get crazy people like Nanking and Holocaust deniers. You can't regulate stupidity.)

No problem.

One of our family friends has a son who is going into high school this year. His mother is from Taiwan, and she was actually uncomfortable with how very negative the presentation of Japan was. She actually said to me that they should have at least balanced it out with information about Japan building schools and railways, and introducing better agricultural methods to the countryside. I guess they cover that in depth in Taiwan, so it sort of upset her to see only negatives about Japan and barely if any mention of other stuff done during that period.

ETA;
I agree with this. In the past few years, I think the general attitude of Japanese toward China and the Chinese people has been warming (can`t comment on the other side as I`m not familiar with attitudes in China). Before, it seemed that a lot of people held the attitude of "China? I wouldn`t even want to visit!", but these days I hear a lot of "China is really looking up. I have high hopes for their future." This attitude has also been made really clear through the amount of sympathy expressed toward economic issues in China - in the past, I don`t think that the regular person would have really cared all that much... But now, you will hear people actually worried about whether people are suffering in China with the closing of factories, etc. And not just in an economic sense, but caring about the real people.

On the contrary... America has been criticized for out-staying its welcome many times.
Although, I guess it depends on who you mean by "they".

General attitude still negative, i.e. if you ask a person do you like Japan, chances are, it's not going to be resounding yes.

However, in practice, once they actually MEET a Japanese person, all the bad sentiments seems to go out the window and everyone gets along pretty well. I have met expat Japanese in China and the feedback I got is they get treated really well by their Chinese colleagues and everyone have a facination with their phones... anyway.

Here are a few fun facts:
- There was a large number of Japanese expats in China since the early 1900s
- Due to the war, many of them had to abandon business and go back to Japan
- Peace times come again, the Japanese are slowly coming back again to trade
- Largest expat Japanese population in the world: Shanghai (good opportunities, cheap, none of the pressures of Tokyo)
- China is Japan's largest trading partner, China needs technology, Japan wants cheap goods. Done deal.

No need to be snide. Americans aren't leaving East Asia, just as Japanese aren't leaving America. There is no slow-down to the influence the West has on the East and vice-versa. Unless you have some privy information, I wouldn't hold your breath.

Very privy indeed, lucky for me, my bomb shelter is rated for 40 megaton nuke with radiation resistance.

America as in American hegemony. Metonymy. You know, American political influences around the world and the American military overseas.

Komitsuki, if you want to talk about military occupation, talk about military occupation. When you use the words "American influence" I don't immediately think of America's military in Japan, because they "influence" they have on the cultural situation is debatable (not a central topic in most Japanese conversations).

And if you are talking politics, you picked a poor time to thing America's new president is not going to be an influential force all over the world, including Japan and East Asia.

I was under the impression that Obama was improving people's view of America, not degrading it even more.

He is. Go to Japan and you can see racks of books in Japanese about Obama. "Change" and "Yes, we can!" are the hip phrases right now. It's hard to get excited about Japanese politics, so Obama gave people something to get excited about.

I'm talking about hegemony.

In South Korea, they immediately think about American military.

Not really, sorry to say. The influential popular media in the West, left or right, is all obsessed to portray Obama very positive thanks to Bush's bigger-than-world utter failure.

Remember the early months of the Clinton era? Same old thing happening again right now.