Japan's record in history and Japanophilia
 

How do you people square your interest in Japanese culture with it's more sinister aspects? I'm talking about japanese racist chauvinism and a seeming lack of respect for human life. I was a typical japan fan in high school, learning the language etc., but I swore it off forever after talking to my great uncle, who fought the Japanese in the Pacific and learned to despise their fanaticism and vile cruelty. It sickens me that Japan escaped a fitting punishment for its crimes at the end of the second World War. Look at the medical researchers of unit 731, many of whom escaped any punishment. I hear there is one brazen enough to travel Japan talking about his atrocities.
There is also the new trend of historical revisionism in Japan that glosses over Japan's shameful record of rapes and massacres.
I learned to respect Japanese art and scientific achievements when iI was a Japanophile but eventually I felt like I was betraying my family and culture by continuing to spend more time learning about this essentially depraved nation than about my own
What are your thoughts?
BTW, this isn't a troll post or anything like that. I'm writing an article for my University's magazine on this topic, as it sems relevant considering how many Japanophiles go there. I need some comment or opposing views.

Japan has been around several thousand years, so thier history is full of things, both good and bad. Most nations that have been around that long have similer tails. The US has it's share cruelty as well, so it isn't like we can point fingers persay. Yes, Japan did some henious things in WW2, but they certainly paid a heavy price for it with the Firebombing raids and the Nuke hits. Some could even say those bombing runs were henious in and of them selves, so I suppose it depends on perspective.

Japan's culture has been dominated by the way of the warrior for a long time, certain things were exspected because of that, being an island unto themselves Japan was rather isolated from other cultures, so they wouldn't have a large reference of other viewpoints at the time. Sparta in ancient Greece, considering thier own warrior ethic, was easily as vicious as Japan.
Warrior culture in general tends to favor the strong willed over the weak willed. The Zulu's under Shaka were the same way. I dare say some of the American elite forces would be just as aggressive.

Go screw yourself, you unimaginative bigot.




Is that what you wanted? Happy now? STFU -fu-

I dislike the word 'japanophile'. It's irrational to blindly love everything Japanese, disregarding the fact that there are good AND bad things in Japan, as well as any other country. Similarly, I find it irrational to suddenly dislike everything about Japan because of something that occurred 70 years ago. You've basically jumped from one extreme end of the spectrum to the other end.

Yes, there have been numerous attempts at whitewashing Japanese history in textbooks. Some things Japan has apologized for, other things they haven't. The only people who are trying to downplay this stuff are a small group of old right-wing fogeys. The general populace in Japan is aware Japan did bad things in the past, and they don't want to revisit those things anymore than anyone else does. Anyone even old enough at the time to have been in charge of Unit 731 are likely passed away by now. Bleak as it was, it's old history now.

I hope you're aware that it was the Allies who exonerated the Japanese imperial family after World War II. Allied war trials against the Japanese were comparatively a lot more lenient than they were against the Germans. In fact, everyone involved with Unit 731 was pardoned by MacArthur in exchange for the scientific information gathered there.

Well dude what about all the shameful and crappy things Americans did to outsiders hmm? Slavery, discrimination bla bla bla. Are you proud of that?

Every country has its ups and downs.

Thats the best way to point things out.:vsign:

We could sit here all day comparing and debating genocides and social injustices. But in reality, human nature is full of these things (in every culture)

Basing one's opinion of a modern country on how they were during the second world war is basically gross bias. The majority of people you meet in Japan today were not alive during the war, and amongst the younger generation especially, there is a huge change in outlook. They don't want to read censored text-books; they don't agree with the actions of their predecessors, and there's little hostility remaining against the nationals of their historical opposition. They may ask of Americans "what do you think of Hiroshima?" but it is with curiosity, not aggression. We should have the courtesy as world citizens to do the same to them. The trend in 'historical revisionism' is neither new nor limited to Japan alone. In the UK, certain information about individuals and action taken during the wars will be kept confidential for up to or beyond 100 years. Japan is no different, and I imagine no other country is either.

I also resent this idea that 'learning about Japan' somehow is implicitly connected with betraying your country and your culture. I'm sorry, but if you want to play that card, then I should like to point out that people with an interest in Japan were vitally important in the war, and were more vital afterwards in trying to establish new, peaceful working relations between nations. You show a certain ignorance when you say you went from 'Japanophile' to 'Japanophobe'. You think you're the only one with relatives who fought in WWII? Many amongst us here have as well, and we respect their views and their suffering, but perpetuating an atmosphere of their justifiable hatred towards another nation now populated by those unrelated to those sufferings, will not help this world to progress in the way it should. Do not confuse this with "Mindless forgiving and soft-hearted forgetting"; it is neither. There is no point, however, as i think i've already made clear, with tarring a whole nation with the actions of a few.

This idea of 'no respect for human life' is also rather bogus considering the current PM has just effectively scrapped the death sentence by appointing a head of criminal affairs who holds a strong anti-corporal punishment sentiment. Your opinions seem founded in a bloody past, with no real anthropological or modern-day understanding of what it means. It's also unfair to compare too closely between Japan and the West. We are different cultures, and in some respects, Japan is a few years behind. I don't mean that they are slow, i mean that in less than 100 years they have had radical social and cultural changes, from the foundation up. Combined with economical difficulties that have delayed such changes.

Japan is not perfect, and I square my interest with it in the same way I square the negative side of Great Britain with my identity with it's culture- by realizing that it does not define the country as a whole. I'm not a Japanophile. That label is only rarely true of people with an interest in the culture, and implies that the interest is unhealthy, irrational and dysfunctional. I don't agree with all of Japan's policies, but at the same time, it's clear that not all Japanese National's do either and to say that it is 'essentially depraved' is bordering on racism. That's akin to going to Bolivia and picking up a child from a nomadic jungle tribe and declaring that South American's are 'essentially stupid'. We now live in a world where assumptions and under-mining stereotyping of that kind is no longer acceptable, and I hope your article reflects that!

My grandfather died during the Portuguese Colony Wars (@ Angola)

Today one of my best friends is Luso-Angolan. (Portuguese/Angolan)


"All forms of anger are the corruption of reason and therefore detrimental to good judgement"

Apparently the OP hasn't heard the the axiom "History is written by the victors". All historical events are white-washed after the fact by the people on the side of the winners. True from ancient history until now.

Exactly, no country is perfect because people run them and no person is perfect.
We can only work hard to improve.

By the way when I was in Japan my friends and I didn't encounter any prejudice. The people I met were nice and polite.
I've been told (by one of my professors with experience in Japan) that in some country-side parts of Japan where people have either never seen or rarely see any foreigners thats where more so mistrust and misunderstandings exist rather than hatred. For example if you speak perfect Japanese they'll pretend they can't understand.
In the cities at this point the stereotype that Japanese won't sit next to foreigners on the trains has become seemly outdated. I sat next to Japanese on the trains and wasn't avoided. But I noticed they would avoid people in my group who were either loud or some how disruptive on the trains.

Here in the U.S there a lot of diversity but its still about 80% White or European decent (although that number is shrinking every year).
So I think some people may feel intimidated to be in Japan because they're worried about being a minority.

I think before people want to make generalizations about each other they should ask themselves "How many people do I know from this country and culture"?

I can see your point. I have many friends that came from China and they always seem to bring up the war when I talk about Japan to them. I know of all the horrible things that where done, but c'mon, that was like 70 years ago. I too only started to get interested in Japan when I was in High School. I didn't let it's bad history get in my way. I say if you like something, continue to like it. If your going to stop liking something just because of the things it's done long ago. Than you might as well just buzz off.

The problem is that Japan never formally apologized to today, unlike Germany. This is still serious.

But I do hope that the non-LDP Japanese politics will end of suffering.

This held true for more ancient history, but less so for WW2. Our history from the WW2 is not all hearsay, we have plenty of audio and video from the war, as well as stories from reporters on the scene, who wrote down what they saw as it happened.

We have movies and photographs taken by Japanese and German soldiers (you can find them on Youtube if you like) which recordered their deeds (and sometimes attrocities). We recovered official transcripts in German and Japanese of staff meetings between military commanders. We also have intercepts of messages between government/command/soldiers which were obtained when the Japanese and German military codes were broken, not to mention hard copies of most of this information.

No doubt some "coloring" was done, but very little was necessary; no one with an iota of intelligence can deny that the Germans and Japanese were truly evil enemies. No tears were shed by the lands of the conquered when the Germans and Japanese were finally driven out.

History has been revised somewhat in Japan, not because the Japanese believe what they did in the war was right, but because even after more than 60 years the shame of their wrongs is still unendurable.

I believe this is wrong. The main reason I believe this is wrong is because there are some Japanese who haven't learned. They drive around in trucks painted with the Emperor's seal and the Japanese flag. These trucks have speakers on top from which messages similar to those of the war are blared out "Japan is the best, the Emporer is Divine, Foreigners are bad..." etc. These people wear uniforms with the Japanese battle flag on one arm and the Swastika on the other. They are the Japanese equivalent of the KKK. These people demonstrate at the various train stations, parks, government buildings. There are often fights between these idiots and those older people who remember the war, and who don't want to see such things repeated.

I hope I can retain my calm. I disagree with listening to whichever relative it was that told you whatever you find disagreeable, because frankly, I don't think your parents were even sperm when this war occurred. Listening to only one person involved in the war is meaningless, because they will almost always naturally say, "Those ******** did this bad thing:mad: "

You need to hear what the other side(s)has to say about things, especially because there are people who participated because they were forced to, not because they wanted to. Thinking about that period in time is dwelling on the past, and worst of all, a past YOU weren't a part of. We should acknowledge what happened not to hate each other, but to learn from the mistakes and not repeat them again.

Saying that you hate Japan makes you an ignorant who apparently refuses to give a younger and blameless generation the chance to prove you wrong, and even when they have and you know that they have, you'll just revert to,"Well, look at what they did during the war".

We're not Japanophiles(I hope!); we're people with knowledge and better judgment who break the Mafia cycle of hating and killing each other because of some issue that happened between our grandfathers from the 1800's. Wanting to learn about another culture helps bridge the gaps created by those idiots preceding us and create understanding.

But they have apologized, thats where your biggest mistake is.

And a lot of the PMs visit Yasukuni Shrine or say some controversial stuffs right after they apologize. Do I see hypocrisy (esp. for the LDP politicians)?

Rinse and repeat for 30 years.

If Japan officially apologized, Japanese politicians should stop paying "positive" homage to the Yasukuni Shrine for the WWII military leaders 20 years ago.

This issue of the past is still hot today. No excuse.

Oh yes, some of my older relatives still remember the Japanese Colonial era and I do have several relatives who got killed in Japan and Korea because of the Imperial Japanese government.

Until Japan officially apologize in a serious manner and stop doing offensive stuffs that could nullify the previous "apologies" for the past few decades...

The country of Japan, and the Japanese people, are not the same today as they were in the Imperial days. Most were not even alive back then, or if they were, they were children at the time.

But there has been many formal apologies, I understand the whole idea that paying homage to the Yasukuni shrine is not a smart move. But there has been many apologies. You say they haven't apologized ever, which is wrong. And since you seem to know so much about this, the new PM has already said he would not go to the shrine.

Yes, it is. And yes, you are. Go crawl back under the bridge you came from.

Nobody is saying ALL Japanese people are responsible for this. As a matter of fact, I kept emphasizing the activists' and politicians' role regarding this matter.

If there were formal apologies, why keep paying positive homage to that Shrine (or any other WWII-related places and monuments) for those specific figures? Isn't it because they weren't formal apologies in the first place?

Read carefully what I wrote. There hasn't been any apology as in sincere apology. I didn't say "no apologies was ever done".

But we will never know what this crazy party called LDP will do in the near future.

You are obviously prejudiced and ill-informed.

Komitsuki; They aren't going to stop paying homage to shrines with wardead, saying their apologies don't matter becuase of this is silly. I'm sorry but I'm calling you on this one. Obama payed respects at Arlington and guess what? Southern dead from the Civil War are intered there. National leaders are expected to perform these functions at thier national cemeteries.

I mean really, shouldn't the Korean leaders meet at thier shrines to honor their war dead? even if some of those fallen were probably war criminals as well? Believe me all war shrines will have certain individuals buried there that were prolly war criminals. Still, most died serving thier respective countries as honorably as they could, self sacrifice, that's what's being honored when they visit these sites.

Whether or not they have officially apologized or not, I don't want to relate Japan's old past with the people there today. Do not blame the entire people for something they cannot help. Most of the newer generations do not even share that same mindset. Some of the old farts in both Japan and America harbor some bad feelings, but that is disappearing along with that generation. The war is OVER and while the mistakes should not be forgotten, I have to say get over it already.

Similarly, I don't want to be blamed for all the stupid things (imo) that the American government has been up to recently. As a citizen of the US, I really feel I have no say so. They hardly represent ME. Just like many people of this world, we just live here and have to deal with the environment we're put into, whether it's the US, Japan, or anywhere else.

An unsettling fact is that we don't know what all happened back then. "Facts" sometimes trickle out, but we can never be sure of the mysterious government... What we can be sure of is that Japan and America came to an agreement despite what all the higher ups knew. Who can you really blame for that, the doer or the accepter?

Especially if he's not going to bother replying. :-/

So you changed your mind after your great uncle (who fought the Japanese) told you they were horrible people? Wow, that sounds like a great way to achieve an opinion on things. Of COURSE he learned to hate them - cause he had to.

All countries have their horrible stories. Back in 1800 the Danish farmers were treated horribly by the upper class who put them in stabled, fed them porridge and forced them to work from sunrise til sunset every single day. They'd get beaten, raped and humiliated in any way possible. Now how does that have anything to do with the current population?

So you want everyone ever participating in war punished? Should we take in all American soldiers who fought for their own country and put them to prison because they violated human rights by defending what they believe in?

Claiming that you're betraying your own culture because u were curious about a so much more different country than your own is just stupid. Following interest and curiosity is not ''betrayal'' - it's learning, and if you cannot see that.. I'm amazed you go to university.

That's not really the point. The real point is that some (not all) prominent Japanese politicians and activists who over-glorify WWII and the atrocities today. They keep saying things like "the Nanking Massacre didn't exist" or "Korea should ditch its own culture for Japanese" and they should stop doing these kind of activities. They are the ones who keep glorifying this.

If they stopped, Korea and China never have any issues about this in the first place.

I actually agree with Komitsuki on that last part, either I'm understanding his points better or it's the end days.

Who are you quoting above?

I rarely can abide blanket statements, but this one I cannot disagree with. All nations, led by warriors, politicians and the like, have at some time committed atrocities on citizens of other nations in the name of necessity. That does not justify it, but it evens the scores. Many have even committed them against their own people. So set that entire part of the discussion aside.

When it comes to my affinity for other cultures history is background information - what a culture experienced in the past to cause the way the think and fell today. Beyond that it is incidental.

As for how I reconcile aspects of Japanese culture today with premises I disagree with is more to the point. I do not approve of the male dominance that is taken to extremes in many Asian cultures, so I temper my relationships by sharing my views early and accepting that there may be a difference that cannot be overcome. I do not blind myself to the issue, as the typical "Japanophile" is thought to do. We all compromise our stances when what we expect to gain is more important to us than what we expect to sacrifice. Recently I gain a closer friend and respect of those close to him when I agreed to physically suffer through an evening of continuous kowtowing in respect to his family and beliefs. It was my choice and being given that choice to accept or reject an aspect of his culture was more important than the discomfort of that choice.

No one truly accepts everything in their world, foreign or not. We accomodate. There are aspects of Japanese culture that I have adopted as my own, those which I admire but cannot assimilate, those which I respect but disagree with, and those I whole-heartedly disapprove of. What matters is the whole, not the pieces.

I have an acquaintance who will not eat in any Vietnamese restaurant because of what the North Vietnamese did to people in the 1960s.

Do you avoid all Japanese products and people because of what was done by their military and government in WWII?

Do you avoid all Chinese food because of Mao Zedong's purges after WWII?


That would be incredibly stupid initially, self-limiting perpetually and would result in even more extensive ignorance on your part.:mad:

Right now, I would like to point out that the original thread author has not posted since starting this thread, nor visited since then. This would make this a spectacular troll post, which is exactly what the troll wanted to happen.

Sadly, this is quite true. In the musea I've visited in Tokyo, some wars are refered to as ´inciddents´ or 'liberation' (ie the occupation of Indonesia),
But that said, most countries have some form of dark history and tend to cover this is up.

Heh, Quailboy; that pic is awsome.

I avoid those warmongering Martians on princible. My avoidance ability is so good, I've yet to meet any Martians.

Rigjht now I may point out that you are trolling on maximum threads throughout this forum.