School: Preparing for life or Babysitting?
 

Hmmm . . .Maybe I've made a topic of meaning or use . . .

Do you think school has a purpouse or is it there to stress you?

Hard subjects, for example, such as Math and Science, especially in high school can be very confusing and in the end, alot of the stuff you learn only people entering certain fields or careers need those skills. I think these should be electives!

Someone said a class for everything Tax should be required and I agree, It's a useful skill so that you are not stressed out. Also like they said, cooking classes as well.

Also learning anout World Cultures through language classes!! Our kids are our future! We should teach them how to appreciate culture so that war does not break.

One last thing, Politics: How To Be A Future Politic and NOT be Arrogant People Trying to Get Everyone To Live Your Way- America- Nuff said!

Do you think we should still learn the way we do? Or "Prepare for life " In a different way? . . .

Oyasumi nasai for now :pandasleep:

The answer: both.

Teachers can only do so much. We aren't parents, and we shouldn't be. Although we can encourage our students, give them opportunities, and work with them for success, we cannot do the work for them. At some point, especially during the adolescent years, a student must step up and decide for themselves to prepare for their future.

Basic math and science, which is what is taught at the high school level, is not really optional. Nor should it be. There is a certain minimum level of education all people should have, and we should always strive to make the minimum more and more difficult to keep up with technological changes in our daily lives.

...and tough being the only superpower left, but seriously, bemoaning American "imperialism" is so overhyped. As I've said elsewhere, it was cool four or five years ago. Now it's just silly.

Yes, school has a purpose...and it isn't just to stress you. This is a short sighted question that only a young student would ask.

Just curious, how do you learn Taxes without learning Math?

But really, the point of subjects like science and math is not only to fill your brain with facts, but is to teach you HOW to learn. Learning progressively more difficult math techniques expand your mind into seeing things in new ways. Without even thinking about it, your brain will apply these skills to other things in life.

And then you go on to say...

Sounds like you might benefit from that World Cultures class you are proposing.

Actually I think student should learn more like they did a couple decades ago. It surprises me that students can graduate from high school without taking basics like Algebra, Biology, and at least of couple years of Foreign Languages.

My high school education compared to my mother's was far, far more rigorous. My mother graduated from college in 1970, and went on to post-graduate work and has a master's. She often points out I did more before I was 25 than she did before she was 50. This was largely due to educational opportunities I was granted at the high school and college level she was never given.

My high school electives consisted of Radio TV Film courses, Computer Aided Design courses, and Robotics courses. None of which really existed at the high school level until only the last fifteen years. Math and Science, of course, were basic courses that led to higher electives. I do not claim to be a capable engineer, but basic math and and science gave me enough understanding to apply concepts in those electives. Many western countries are already falling behind in terms of math and science, especially as it applies to innovation and technology. Simply taking classes in humanities will only further this trend.

And my civilian careers have all been journalism, public relations, or teaching, but I still value the courses I took in math and science.

The only things that really strikes me as glaringly weird about the American school system are a) nobody seems to know what geography is and b) you don't specialize on your subjects until really late.

The latter only probably seems weird because in the UK you have to start refining your classes when you are 14-15, picking your GCSE subjects. The former just seems like a gap in the curriculum.

But I do think some school subjects should have more real-life focus. Especially practical subjects like Techs. I don't need to know how to calculate the amount of calcium in a meal to balance an imaginary child's diet, what I really need is to know what and how I can cook this lump of meat, defrost it without poisoning myself and the difference between it and that other lump of meat. I doubt there will ever be a pressing need for me to vacuum form plastic, but I would love to actually know the names of these thingy-bobs and how they are holding the hoojamacallit together, so I know what to ask for and how to fix it when stuff breaks. How to grout tiles! Hang a door! Iron silk fabric! Thank God for google.

It's easy to assume that these are just simple life-skills that people will learn at home, but that's not entirely true because not everyone is in that kind of situation. I have lived in so many house shares where I've actually been the only one capable of feeding herself a proper meal and not freaking out and calling the landlord every time the shower curtain comes off the wall.

Actually though, in the UK they are starting to do things like invite banks to talk at the school and explain personal financing to students, and what interest rates are and the difference between bonds and ISAs and so forth.

there are those classes, home ec. (cooking), and shop.

Yes, school is very purposeful, and is very much a necessity especially in today's world. Even this advanced math that you mention, which I assume is calc. (I don't see where you couldn't use the lower classes), is very useful and I use on a normal basis e.g. skateboard ramp building, converting wattage. It just makes life so much easier knowing the proper numbers.

Personally I could have used more periods to fit classes into my schedule. Unfortunately people in the states that plan to go to college can't really afford to take many electives. I remember I actually didn't get to have any electives and ended up taking 5 years of math in the 4 years of high school just so I could get up to a transfer level.

Also, I don't see how kids knowing more about culture will stop war. Most wars aren't because of clashing cultures. Not that culture isn't important, but the culture usually IS taught as part of the language courses. Not only that, schools usually have world history classes as well.

America doesn't really care about how other people live their lives. It's more about trying keep America a super power and such. Kind like when a person is "looking out for #1" first. America doesn't hate anyone so why hate America?

I think they system of teaching is correct, but it needs to be knocked up a notch. There are too many... not so bright ones getting through too easy, when they could have applied themselves and become quite smart.

Yes, I know, but my point was that the curriculum I was taught IN those classes didn't actually teach you anything applicable to daily life. This might not be true for the same classes in other countries.

You didn't learn about cooking and using tools?

It's entirely possible that he may not have done. I - for example - never was taught cooking or using tools, such lessons didn't start until Year 7 (age 11-12), and then it was entirely theoretically knowledge, I believe I only ever cooked two things: a fruit salad and a cheese sandwich, which as you can imagine one doesn't exactly need a class on to know how to do such simple meals. Then from ages 14-15 it's an optional course. So we learnt exactly three years of theoretical cooking skills :P

Personally I agree with some of the other posters, schools need to teach things more practical to everyday life, a lot of the time the skills we learnt were things easily forgotten or not applicable to life. I for one have never used a quadratic equation outside of lessons, but things such as cooking would would have been a lot more useful to have learnt! Then again, I suppose it's not entirely up to the schools, but to parents as well.

I feel that the modern education system needs to be reworked. Currently the system is structured around preparing one for an industrialized society. The current system was made in response to the need the industrial revolution generated. We're in the middle of the digital revolution now.

The probably with school systems now, at least public eduction, is that maths, science, and english are all at the top of the pyramid. The arts have constantly remained at the bottom of the spectrum. This combination of raising facts above the arts destroys our creative nature we're gifted with at birth.

We're taught that we should never be wrong, and punished for doing so. We're given creative tools such as glue, pencil crayons, markers, crayons, blocks, scissors, and other materials in the lower grades and are constantly robbed of them piece by piece as we get older. This teaches us to stay on the same line, never think outside the box, and that being creative is wrong.

I believe this is the reason why members of our society are so plagued by their inhibitions. We're so afraid of being wrong we change who we are to satisfy the public eye. This is why actors, actresses, singers, painters, architects, and other artists are so special. These people are not afraid of being wrong, and embrace their creative nature.

Now I'm not saying math, science, and english is not important, because it is. What I'm saying that the arts should be valued equally.

I believe we're going to see a shift in how the education system is managed within the next few decades. A lot of cooperations have started to realize how powerful a creative environment is.

This is one of the reasons google has become so successful, and keeps moving forward with more and more innovative products each year. Just do a quick search of their office floors. Even the architecture is nothing short of amazing.

I know Americans are deluded about this, but your public school system in general is babysitting, plain and simple. There are exceptions in districts here and there as there always are exceptions, but it's not the rule.

Ask a Japanese exchange student who spends time in the US what they think about the schooling. I don't mean to be crass, but I knew one Japanese girl who evidently only came to the US to skank out and party. Let's keep it real, that's what happened. Sorry, US schools are a joke, but it's no accident. That's how the status quo likes it to create ignorant drones and helpless slackers to make cannon fodder for their oil wars and shill grunt brigades -- oh, and shoppers.

Heh, So school thinks they just need to worry about teaching us technology and industry

Tyrien has pointed something out that has ticked me off since eighth grade ( In 9th now) Others have brought good points too and for taking the time todo so I thank you

The point I'm talking about is the creative thing, I've neverliked the crafty work too much but I did like writing stories, It made me want to bea writer! Now I feel there is nothing much but analyzing literature. It helps in SOME fields but not all.

My English class is taking 6-9 WEEKS to write a Reaserch paper explaining why a certain person is a hero. Is such a long time necessary? Sheesh . . .

Another thing is I took myself from a "Slackingschool with lots of fighting to a school with nice people but alot tougher but I'm too afraid of the high school to go back and two of my classes are still likeable.

Atleast Biology is taking time to reteach and go just a bit detailly further in topics from eigth grade and I have many friends there and in my Japanese class . . .

School is weird, and questionable!

You have experiences with multiple school districts in multiple states, in various regions of the US, and different demographics? Perhaps as both a student and as a teacher? Since your tone indicates you are not an American, I find this hard to believe.

Where do you come by this "rule?"

My students have a lot more paperwork in Japan than I did. More tests, more rote memorisation. They have a lot less creative thinking. A lot less music. A lot less art.

Japanese teachers have very little student teaching. They do not have to take child psychology.

The view of education is very, very different. If your friend thought she could skate by because of lack of busywork, she's in for a rough ride, both in Japan, where we are already having a second lost generation, and in America, where the ability to regurgitate is not useful.

Yeah... This is where I write you off. Exit, stage right.

I think the opposite. You don't need to take a class to be taught how to make a fruit salad or a cheese sandwich.

Maybe you missed what I wrote above, but you do not learn quadratic equations just so you can use quadratic equations, but rather you learn such things to train your mind HOW to understand things like quadratic equations.

Just as you don't lift weights in order to be able to lift weights. Lifting weights is training to be able lift other heavy objects. Learning seemingly useless math formulas is training for other mind challenging work.

No. Have you (been to every single district or at least one in every state)?

No. Are you trying to say one requires personal experience as both in every single district to have an accurate overview of the situation? Personal experience, statistics, widely known poor test scores, wide spread ignorance of new college level students, and not to mention just the plain evident outlook of many young adults these days will suffice to me as valid basis for the lacking public school system, which is indeed overall just a government daycare center in most districts.

It doesn't matter what I am. My tone was just expressive to emphasize objectivity, nothing more. I say these things because I want them fixed. If I didn't care I wouldn't be saying anything about it. Don't attack the messenger. But as a matter of fact, I was not born in the US and English is not my first language. Obviously, I did go to school here. But that doesn't matter much and this is not about me. If you want to make it about me and ignore the well known facts about the public school system because I don't personally comply with your requirements, be my guest.

From what I mention above. If you don't care about my experiences, look at the test scores. Go look at the the staggering ignorance of high school level students and many comedic anecdotes about it. In one instance, many high school students quizzed didn't know who Thomas Jefferson was and could not name the 2 houses of congress or even the 3 branches of government. Are the Japanese students of equal grade that uninformed about their own government? I doubt it.

I know the general differences. Stuff is actually taught there and the system is actually dedicated towards discipline to achieve it. Less creative thinking? Less music and art? You think most public schools in the US are Socratic campuses of thought or orchestra halls and art shops full of highly skilled and dedicated music and art teachers? That's not correct. It's absurdly false. They're full of cliques who go there mainly to socialize. Japan may be rigid and not value creativity much in schools, but quite frankly that's none of my business. I just know that overall it's better education, if only because it's competent at something other than putting kids together to socialize and keep them out of their parents' way.

You just also described public school teachers in America. If you think otherwise you must either be or acquiescence to teachers union leeches or you must have romped exclusively in yuppie schools, not the average ones.

I don't think you understood. The paperwork was a joke to her. She didn't neglect any schoolwork. I think it's well known fact among exchange students from certain countries that the experience to American schools is pretty much only social, and perhaps linguistic.

This must be the creativity you're talking about. Let me just grab my Hamlet gear and I'll get off the stage.

I have been enrolled in multiple school districts in multiple states. I have also been in two private schools in two different states. I did my student teaching in urban, low-income areas.

Well, now. You didn't back up your comments with personal experience. You did not offer statistics, the "widely known poor test scores," examples of "wide spread ignorance of college level students" and I'm not sure where you're getting this "just plain evident outlook" of America's youth. As far as I can tell, you mentioned one Japanese girl you knew. Otherwise, you didn't offer any evidence at all.

It matters largely because of the accusations you toss out. Unsubstantiated allegations that lead me to question what kind of evidence you have. I'm not attacking you. I know nothing about you. I am questioning your motivations because of those allegations.

It does matter, because it's very important to see where you're coming from and what has influenced you to form the opinions that you have, and what you take to be true. I'm not ignoring "well known facts," I am asking you to provide them when making an argument. I want to know where you're getting these facts. I want to read the sources. I want to compare them to mine. If I feel they do not take into account certain important and significant issues, I will want to counter them.

It's not that I don't care about your personal experiences. I do. I just haven't yet seen you describe them in any detail. You tell me to "go look at" but you provide nothing for me to look at.

You seem to be quoting some kind of reports in regards to history and government, but you don't back up where you get those ideas. If they happened in your own classes, say that. If they come from studies, post the links or give me the bibliographical data so I can hit the periodical databases or have my parents (professional librarians) get me copies of your sources. It's hard to follow your claims when they lack warrant. Personal experience is warrant, but be prepared for others to counter with their own personal experiences, which also count as warrant.

As for what Japanese know about their own government, I can speak to my personal experience and state that voter apathy is pretty widespread here. The Japan Times often talked about it. I know in conversations with my coworkers and neighbors that I generally know more about the Diet and the parliamentary system then they do. I don't know, because I've never asked, nor done the research, what my students know about their government. However, I will do the research tomorrow, and I will ask around. I will talk to the social studies teachers and find out if I can get ahold of documents talking about this subject. You might be right. You might also be wrong. If you have studies, rather than just your "doubts" I would be happy to examine them.

Depends on what you mean by stuff. Most of the education given in my schools, which are nationally set benchmarks, are heavily, heavily tilted towards passing tests. Primarily these tests are entrance examinations. First to high school, then to college. I would not say that the system, and I am a part of the system you mention, I am cog in its machine, is actually dedicated towards discipline to achieve much beyond passing those tests. Just what do you think my students are learning and why are they learning it?

Ask any Japanese students why they take English, and by far, the largest reason is "because I need to pass an entrance exam." I took French in high school because I wanted to learn an "exotic" language and go to France, which I did. Japanese was not offered, and was a personal hobby. Most of my peers took Spanish because they "had to" no different from most of my Japanese students, but everyone who took French was pretty much like me, since it was a much smaller program, with less classes.

Wow. Uhm. Just wow. I had outstanding teachers across the board. In poor districts and wealthy districts. In public schools and private schools. They lead me to see teaching as a worthy goal and to become a teacher myself.

Yes, I do believe there are dedicated music and art teachers all over the US. I have met many of them. Studied under some, worked with others. I went to college with some of them. And even more, I know dedicated English teachers who are creative writers and care passionately for language. I know a science teacher, my chemistry teacher, who today is still teaching in the same school, who meets with me every time I return to the US and shares his thoughts on teaching with me, a young teacher, who could use the advice. They do their best, day in, and day out to provide quality education in a myriad of regions, areas, demographics, with various levels of tax allocations and equipment. Some in facilities that are amazing, some in facilities that are falling apart.

You do American teachers a disservice. I rebuke you.

Humanity is cliquish by nature. That certainly takes on a whole new meaning in junior high school and high school. There are cliques in Japanese schools. What would make you think there aren't? Socialising is part of the value of school, yes, but if an adolescent really thinks of school as merely for socialising, then he or she not taking responsibility for him or herself. As I said earlier, we will become babysitters, as teachers, for those that do not take responsibility for themselves. We do not want to be. We want those students to enjoy learning for the sake of learning and for the sake of their future, but we can't make them. It's beyond our purview and our ability.

This is just as true of Japanese students as it is for American students. I lost two of my students last year. They didn't graduate... From the ninth grade. They did not study, they dropped out. They couldn't pass entrance exams. They did not go to high school. They have had to try to enter the work force in the midst of a global recession. My schools are small, so two students are a rather big deal. It happens. Everywhere. In every system. Your knowledge of the Japanese system in practice seems slight. Once again, I am curious where your sources are.

Uhhh... Yeah. No. American teachers are required to do many, many hours of student teaching and are required to take child psychology and a host of education courses. They must take and pass tests, such as the Praxis, to even qualify to apply for their certification in their state of residence. I am very well acquainted with these procedures (I scored quite highly on my Praxis), and American teachers are required to retrain every couple of years.

I attended two school districts in very poor areas. I attended one in a middle class area. I attended two private schools in very poor areas (both had many low-income students on scholarship, both were Catholic). Only my public high school was in a high-income, tax rich area. I was only there for three years out of my twelve years of education. I had quite a wide ranging group of school experiences.

Part two to follow:

My experience, as I stated, was that my students have a lot more busywork than I did. I also believe they have less analysing. I am sure she did find paperwork to be a joke. So did I. However, if she did not learn skills in critical thinking, which I did learn, especially in English courses with composition (and one of the major reasons I am an English teacher is because of my middle school and high school English teachers), then she will have a tough time getting through life. Even if she does pass entrance examinations. You also have to realise, that Japanese exchange students are not graded in their time out of the Japanese school system. It has no effect. It only matters if they pass their entrance examinations. Linguistically, it will probably help, yes. This does not help establish an argument on the experience of American students in American schools.

Actually, I meant I was exiting stage right. Not asking you to do so.

Which means you left since there's nothing to do with those places as they are.


I can assure you not many people in a general American forum would backup your viewpoint that the public schools are working and headed in the right direction. Except, maybe, in a teacher's union forum.

Well, you know my motivations now that I've stated them. I really don't have either the energy nor the desire to pursue a futile and tedious excursion to prove myself to you. Maybe had I been educated better I wouldn't be so cynical and lazy.

I already told you where I got my viewpoint. My experiences in school, statistical data of test score comparisons. I saw total idiots starting college, some who seemed to belong more in middle school. Spoon feeding union teachers in prior schooling who are just there because it's a gig, not paid well, not trained well. Students who failed work got passed under the lowest minimum requirements. I saw it, I lived it. Even by the state's own standards, massive failure in testing, yet no consequences to the school for it. Nothing like the charter type schools in Europe. Keep in mind, I am talking about Texas, among the worst school systems in the country. Yet it's not an isolated case by far.

You want to just dismiss all that by telling me you know better than what I saw with my own eyes or that mine is an isolated event, or that people I've talked to from California and other states who also went to public school said the same thing and agreed with me, for pete's sake? Ok. Whatever.

There's no need to go into detail. My comments were anecdotal. Take them or leave them. I already said it all in a nutshell. Everyone I've had a discussion about it with sees the same thing. It's almost common knowledge how worthless public schools are, even if some want to pretend like nothing is wrong. Typically the school staff. It's basically like telling a DEA agent that marijuana has been scientifically proven to be harmless. They'll throw bureaucracy in your face.

I told you they are little more than social events, and perhaps even social engineering. I learned near to nothing in school. I actually lost my interest in pursuing a high career in biology there. I learned more in 1 month of browsing the internet after high school than my whole time attending. The kids are apathetic and cynical, the teachers, such as yourself, are deluded and detached. Nothing of much academic consequence ever occurs in the average public school. So, yes, "Go look at it". If you don't want to, I don't care. Believe whatever helps you feel comfortable.

I don't keep up with the latest failure of the school systems nor would I remember the specific sources. Most if it was in periodicals from a while back. Go research the matter yourself and I'm sure you'll find plenty of material. Or just call me a liar and move on. I really don't care either way. I'm not going to get into a futile and tedious internet link wargame. I know for a fact that the public school systems in the US are generally a government monopoly, a bureaucracy that is set up to answer to no one for performance. Do you deny this is true, or are you under some impression that all piss poor schools suffer some sort of funding or administrative consequences related to academic performance in any way?

I don't know your system and like I said it's really none of my business. What I do know is the system where I was in, and I do know that it's not tilted towards passing any tests. Even by the state's own tests they perform poorly, at least in states like Texas.

I'll tell you what it is primarily tilted towards. Kids showing up. That's it. I know people who went to court for being absent. This is because the schools lose funding per absence if they stack up. All while they teach nothing. It's mere and simple bureaucracy to warehouse kids.

Then like I told you, you either have been away for quite a while or are looking/remembering through rose tinted specs. Maybe things went to hell since you left? There are always good and determined teachers. I observed it myself. There was at least one math teacher who I had some year. He left after one year, probably much like you did.
They're working in a flawed and failed system, so it doesn't matter. You make it seem like magnificent teachers are lining up for every school in the country. That's a laughable image. I told you there are well meaning and individually skilled teachers, but nobody can do anything with a garbage system alone. The filler isn't good teachers. A good teacher to enter a crap school district is pissing in the wind. The weight of the mediocrity is unsurmountable. The only possible solution is to dismantle entire school districts-- everything except the buildings, and rebuild them with a system that works such as charter schools. It won't be done in time, if ever, and that is what sucks.


Doesn't matter what the buildings look like if the system is flawed and does not work. Although the ones that are falling apart are simply a double whammy. Both a waste of time and depressing dumps, not to mention sometimes violent; at least mine weren't, and that's the only positive thing I can say about them.

You do American youth and future a disservice.

I never said there weren't cliques in all schools nor that socializing isn't important. I said it shouldn't be the main reason to be there nor the only one, as it often is.

Well that's probably because you have standards there. Here they would have sent him/her to court and forced him/her to attend, just so him/her could show up and not affect the farce of a system that only rewards the schools with attendance records and not anything else.

Is that a fact? I guess someone forgot to tell that to the French teacher I had in 10th grade. He was a sub who stayed the whole year because the regular teacher had left on maternity leave. Yeah, he was a real magnificent teacher, not just some guy telling kids to open a book and read while they chatted the whole class. It also only happened that one time in my special case school, not anywhere else in the area. An aberration, really. Except for all those other crappy teachers who basically did the same thing most of the year.

Even substitute teachers? That one in French was the only one I knew of for sure, but others felt just as bad. Who's to say? I didn't have access to the teacher's qualifications.

This paragraph alone is quite telling. 3 years in several schools, eh? Same as every other new teacher with high qualifications who starts up in a crappy school they don't like. They leave, as they should.

Well I would imagine so because it would be quite a worthless achievement if it was in an American public school. Much less in Texas. where George W. was governor for a long time, and then voted for president twice by most. And later same for Palin as VP.

Next time you read the newspaper or go to an online news site, every time you read a magazine, every time you look at information for places you'd like to go... try doing it without photographs.

Well, what can I tell you. Around 11-13 I wanted to be a research biologist. I was an A+ student until sometime in high school. After high school I could barely be assed to spend any time in college, then I became an aspiring artist.

In all fairness, though, creativity means more than drawing or painting. In the basic sense of it, creativity plays a large part in inventing things. Also in self preservation of a culture, and maybe even the species in the long run. Think of wars: the more creative ones usually win, even just for being more creative than the enemy to organize more massive numbers, or obviously to build better weapons or better tactics.

With that said. Caring about nothing but creativity is just going to make you and your society fail. The same goes for being homogeneous with any other trait. It's a balance.

That's a bold statement. I hope you can back it up. As you state later, you know more about the Japanese government than many of your Japanese neighbors. I am curious why you think Japanese students would know more about their government system than Japanese students. If voter apathy is any indicator, I think you know what the answer would be.


Your tone here is a little over the top...so let's try and reedl it in. Don't put words in other people's mouths. Speaking in such black and white terms doesn't help either side of the argument or your credibility.

As a former teacher in Japan and in the US, I can say with confidence that Japanese public schools are places to learn to be obedient Japanese citizens, and not creative thinkers. That's Japanese Education 101..

You are not talking about the public school teachers I know in America, who spend hundreds of dollars at the beginning of each school year buying school supplies for their students that can't afford their own.

Let's agree that it isn't as black and white as all that.

I would not concede to that one bit. Ask the exchange students I graduated with that graduated from American high schools, went on to American colleges and are now successful professionals.

Just as my experience is not holistic, neither is yours. Why don't we agree to that?

I think it depends where you are... Educational systems like the French and Japanese ones are rubbish in my opinion... it forces too much on students that end up being relatively crap to other systems like the British. I always hear random people say that, omg, the Japanese system is the hardest ever, they have to learn SO MUCH... The truth is, from my experience, Japanese students that are excellent in high school, end up struggling at French universities... I have a classmate here at uni that got accepted easily to Todai, yet the first year, he stuggled big time. I had to help him out... and it wasn't even a problem with languages... he had rubbish knowledge of Integrals, Differentiation etc. The only strong point he had in Math, was Geometry and basic Algebra.
Some French students are the same... they have such a broad education, that when they come to selecting a route/subject for higher education, they end up being too weak compared to the English who make you choose at Senior High School...

So, I think it comes down to the age old debate of, what's better, broad education, or specific education...

Oh Salvanas...

You do not understand that art is more than paintings and sculpture.

Without art, there would be no architecture. We would still be living in caves.

Without art, there would be no cuisine. We would still be eating twigs and berries.

Without art, there would be no clothing. We would still be wearing felts and leaves.

Without art, there would be no news or exchange of information. The telling of a story, the painting of a picture in the mind, is an art.

Without art, there would be no advances in science. We would still think we live on a flat rock in the center of the universe.

Without art, there would be no media. Imagine no games, movies, TV, novels, music...no entertainment whatsoever.

Without art there would be no technology. It takes creative thought to advance, and without art we would still be rubbing sticks together to start a fire.

To denounce artists is like denouncing oxygen. You may think you don't need it to live, but wouldn't last five minutes without it.

No, as Robinsmask said, it was mostly only theoretical or highly abstract, which doesn't really work in practical classes like techs. That's why I think it's kind of dumb. We were having 'Woodshop' and 'cooking class', but neither actually taught us working with wood or how to cook. How to design packaging, yes. About the industrial food industry, yes. About industrial manufacture, yes. Nutritional analysis yes. But the only practical examples were, as you quite rightly say, pointless. I think we made biscuits and a salad, which we all knew how to do already.

Woodshop was slightly more useful, but highly focused on tools you'd only get in an industrial setting. Who has a band sander in their garage and tools for polishing acrylic? All the wood working and DIY i know I pretty much learnt from my dad and my grandpa. I'm pretty sure there's nothing I learnt from class that I still apply in use. Except to always chisel away from myself and that I hate acrylic.

But the point is, as much as we can sit back and say "oh but that's the parent's duty to teach", that's rather narrow-sighted. There are kids without parents; there are definitely kids with parents who either weren't taught the skills (wrong gender, for example. My dad never did 'cooking' at school) in their day, or are otherwise just incompetent. And even in my generation, If I hadn't gone out of my way to learn, or been in a family where things like this were passed on (and in that regard, i'm pretty lucky), then I wouldn't have the skills to pass it on to my kids. I do think it's important, especially the cooking as the UK has such a bad problem with an unhealthy population, simply because they don't know about food, or how to prepare it for themselves, and this is a relatively recent development. Within two generations we've gone from a nation of 'growing your own' to not being able to identify a leek.

I do agree though that abstract learning like algebra has it's place in the world. Knowing a little of it does help as it can crop up in many different occupations.

I didn't say "pointless"...I said "seemingly pointless" in that a student can't see the point of a course of study, even if it becomes more clear later in life.

Actually learning about packaging design, industrial food industry, industrial manufacture and nutritional analysis sound fascinating and quite useful for some people in the future.

Learning that something isn't for you can be just as useful as learning it is.
Again, sound like useful lessons.

That's interesting, because at least where I live "growing your own" is becoming a very new and real thing (again) in local education.

No, I never said that. I don't know where you got that. And I don't have any Japanese neighbors.

This quote confuses me -but I assume you meant American/Japanese? If so, then change the subject from government to whatever is common knowledge to adults in Japan. Maybe the cause of tsunamis, or something like that. I don't know, you tell me. And is it a fact they teach nothing of the government structure in schools? Again, you tell me. The only reason I brought up government knowledge in the case of American students is because knowing the names of the 3 branches of government are ridiculously common teachings but that evidently nobody pays attention.

So maybe Japanese/American could learn something from each other. This is something I already considered long ago and which I generally consider true. Either way my focus here was the broken public schools here. It needs to be said because it's the first step in fixing it, although I am just about finished caring because there doesn't seem to be any hope of that happening.

No, it isn't. I'm only vouching for what I know is the trend. I know for a fact there is no surplus of competent and dedicated teachers in this country. They are not paid enough and the contractors are indifferent. I also said many times in the mess of posts above that I am aware dedicated and even skilled teachers here exist, but they are not going to lift a broken system on their backs. Unless they are unlucky, they leave bad schools and go somewhere better. Sad -- but true.

I never said the whole of education in the country had collapsed. The country would have gone along with it. University is actually the only true education left here. Maybe that's all there ever was. But one of the other polars to my point here is that the public education is now so bad that it's ruining a lot of potential students. That simply is not sustainable.

Nope, I never said it was. But I do believe there is a serious problem, as do many others.

...Actually, no. I left because of the recession. Dallas had a hiring freeze, Austin was hiring less teachers. Others simply couldn't offer enough to allow me to teach and pay my bills. Hmm.. Those cities are in TEXAS. I'm a Texan. I got myself into debt to be a teacher. I had to get myself out. I would've much rather taught in Austin at the time, and one of my friends (a former JET) is teaching high school as an English teacher in Austin.

Now, I stay in Japan because I have built a life here. It's my home. That's really what comes down to.

Are they working? For some students, yes. Are they headed in the right direction, in some ways. But the problems between districts and states are different. Not every school has the same issues as every other school. I believe teachers are working hard, collectively, to do the best they can. Are there bad teachers? Yes. Sadly. This is true of every industry. Do I think they are the majority, or even a significant minority? Doesn't ring true.

Fair enough. It's an internet forum. We choose our priorities. I happen to be an educator, and so I admit, I can rarely take myself "off shift." I'm always trying to teach. I'm sorry your education was so piss poor. What did you do to make the most of it?

I'm from Texas. My experiences do not match yours. Especially when it comes to the quality of teachers. I would not say I saw total idiots starting college. I did see plenty of people who did not take education seriously. That is not the same thing.

Texas IS one of the "worst systems" in the nation. I believe we are 48th. That's pretty despicable. Education took a serious hit under George W. Bush. Believe me, I know. I wish I didn't. However, this was largely because of the funding he removed after he took over from Anne Richards. He removed funding for head start programs. He cut equipment and facility funds. He cut funds for alternative certification. He cuts funds for after school programs... This was not because of the teachers. Perry hasn't done much better. In fact, he hasn't done better at all.

We don't get paid well, no. But not trained well? Seriously? I don't buy it. All the teachers I know, including myself, went through far more training than my Japanese counterparts. Texas training standards are different, but not incomparable to other states. Several of my teachers had master's degrees. School librarians are required to have master's in library science. Administrators have master's in education. I plan to get a master's in philosophy.

And I'm in not in a teachers union. Certainly not one in Texas.

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No. I wanted you to cite sources. I still do. I am genuinely curious. If schools are that much worse than I thought they were in the four years since I graduated from college, then now that I'm debt free, I might just have to move back (assuming I can get hired by recession hit school districts) because my country really needs me!

Sounds to me like a bunch of bitter teenagers who hated their school experiences and want to blame it on the teachers and administrators. I hated school. Absolutely hated it. I was miserable. I had very few moments of genuine happiness. You know what I really hated? Being an adolescent. Hard to judge my school experiences independent of that fact.

I love teaching. I love when I can encourage someone to learn. I love it when I can be a kid's "moment of genuine happiness" like teachers I can name were for me. Do I think they're going to look back on adolescence and think it's awesome because of me? No. Do I think that our students will notice at 14 or 15 that the changes we manage to make has made their schooling better? No. They might at twenty. I would hope by thirty.

Man if I knew then what I know now... But, of course, hindsight is 20/20. I had so many opportunities to learn that I ignored. I had so many opportunities to play sports, work in activities, make excellent grades, be published beyond what I was fortunate enough to do. I spent most of my time on the internet talking about Sailor Moon. While I still love doing that, and I certainly can't complain about how successful I am now, and I am very happy, if I had taken personal responsibility for my education at a younger age, well... there's no telling what I might have accomplished. Just because I had good teachers didn't mean they could do the job for me.

As a matter of fact, I have researched the topic. Not extremely recently (meaning last few months), but definitely in preceding years. Which would make sense, given my career and nationality. I am well aware of the problems. I just don7t think that equates to babysitting just for socialising without any benefit to American society. Certainly not as mind-washing propaganda camps for the US military, which you explicitly stated in your first post.

And frankly forget links. I'd rather you cite bibliographical data from books. Love me some books. Hardcover books. Yellowed pages, with that crisp woody smell... ebooks will never be the same.

The public school systems in America are not a monopoly. Especially not in Texas. School districts compete against each other and private schools for enrollment and funds. You do know you could have petitioned to go to a higher rated school in your area, right?

My system is the Japanese system, which you commented about earlier. You made statements about the Japanese system, and I offered my personal experience teaching inside of that system.

America is not the educational leader it once was, I will certainly agree with you there. In all states, not just Texas. However, I do not believe that the majority are failing TAKS (it was TAAS when I took it), although scores in lower income and border areas are indeed dipping in ways that are worrisome. But the teacher and school are only part of team of players, including the student, and the student's parents. Teachers cannot do it alone.

Part two:

I was in school from 1988-2001. K-12. I was in college from 2001-2006 (I was a Music Education major, changed to English, changed universities, lost about 18 hours of credits and I worked too, hence five years). I moved overseas in November of 2007.

I didn't know anyone who went to court for being truant. I am aware that schools lose funding for absences if they stack up. I learned A LOT in my classes. I realise now I could have learned a lot more if I had paid more attention. I never felt warehoused, especially when it came to music and English, which I loved. I also took several AP courses because I wanted to, but even my regular classes never felt inadequate. If anything was inadequate, it was my sense of personal responsibility.

Left November 2007. So it wasn't that long ago. I don't think the system could completely collapse in two years... And believe me. It's pretty impossible to look back at my own academic experiences with rose colored glasses. As I said, I was pretty miserable. I don't think I was ever genuinely happy about much at all until I moved to Japan. That covers a lot of different career attempts (journalism, the navy, politics, public relations, marketing, did a few month selling shoes...) as well as my education background.

I do know that even in the US, I loved teaching, and would have been quite happy to stay if I could have found a job paying about $28K a year, which is what I needed to pay off student loans, get an apartment, pay for my car, etc. Obviously, I'd need benefits at well.

There are good teachers lining up to work at any school that will pay them a living wage. We can't work, if it means racking up more debt. The fact of the matter is that the low-income school problem is self-refreshing. Low-income schools have low tax allocations. Low tax allocations mean less money for teachers and equipment and facilities. This in turn means larger class sizes, less individual attention, more students fall through the cracks. They end up living in the same are, contributing to its low-income tax allocation. A vicious cycle.

The answer, I believe, which will get the states' righters up in arms, isn't charter schools (which there's nothing wrong with, I like charter schools), but a nationalised system that allocates federally collected tax money to each school equally. Regardless of tax income of the area. Add onto that federally mandated tests, federally mandated goals, federally mandated textbooks, etc. It'll never happen because of the US political structure. So we have to do the best we can with what we have. The answer is not to blame the teachers, but to support them.

Seems like this got dropped when I split the post... I can't remember what I said, but I think it was a return to the vicious circle mentioned above. Especially in regards to violence. Also, violence happens in Japanese schools too. Last year a student (one of the ones that failed out) threw a desk at a teacher. And I live in the middle of nowhere.

Why is that? If you say because I am teaching in Japan and not the USA... I would say you're right. And yes, I do feel guilty about it. If you say it because I refuse to stand by while you paint American teachers with a broad brush, then I'm sorry. Blaming the teachers is not the answer.

I agree that it shouldn't be, I don't agree that it often is.

Oh believe me. Japanese junior high school is quite compulsory. We made them attend anyhow. Doesn't mean we could force them to do any work.

Substitute teachers are not trained teachers. Anyone can be a substitute as long as they have a degree. This is fine, as long as they only fill in for a day or two. You're telling me they let him stay the whole year without him at least gaining alternative certification or undergoing supervision with a certified teacher??? That's outrageous! You had every right, and I mean every right, to complain all the way up the chain on that one. I would have. In fact I wish I knew what school district this was so I could read them the riot act. You are absolutely right. That is atrocious. It should never have happened, and I apologise for it.

See above. Subs are only supposed to fill in for one or two days. They are not supposed to be teaching, they are merely supposed to be supervising. What your school did is unforgivable. I am also fairly certain it's breaks all sort of State Education Board policies in Texas. I'll see if I can pull up the relevant statutes. That's... I believe you. I certainly believe you. But I'm appalled.

...that was my school career, not my teaching career. My parents moved a lot. My mother was already a librarian, but my father retired from the Air Force, then got a degree from one university, his master's from another, and has changed jobs twice in the last ten years.

It was in a public school in Texas. One that you would probably term a "yuppie school" I suppose. High income, high tax allocation. And I'll have you know that Travis County (Austin) and Harris County (Dallas) went for Kerry and Obama. So did at least one other country (Brownsville's maybe?). I never voted Republican. I didn't have to tell you that, but I'm telling you anyway.

I am all for the knowledge for knowledge's sake argument, but at the same time, it has to be sensible. Sure, the things I mentioned might be of benefit of SOME people, but the practical lessons, enjoyed or despised would be of practical benefit for all people. I'm not talking about elective classes here, i'm talking about the compulsory ones we took pre-GCSE. The packaging design, industrial food industry, etc are fine for those with a genuine interest in pursuing a class or career in that direction, but are a waste of time for those only learning, as you say, that it isn't for them. Which is relatively ironic as now i have a grasp of cooking and DIY i really enjoy them, but i certainly didn't at school.

I think in the last year, there's been a push to bring gardening back into schools and so on. There's been a lot of 'dig in' campaigns, but interestingly, not run by the government as much of the state school campaigns are. It's been done through things like big companies and the BBC instead.

I think both you and Salvanas are talking about different things... The definition of art you've just used can be used for anything. Someone could say there is an art to taking a piss! It doesn't mean it's art! I think Salvanas does have a point... the majority of people I know that are "artists", studying Art, illustration, cinematography etc are people that failed at school!

My mistake...that was Tsuwabuki. But I agree with him. Many if the students I taught didn't even know who the prime minister was at the time.

Again, I meant American, not Japanese. My mistake, but I appreciate you seeing through my error.

Again with the black and whites. People pay attention.

This is a bit of a cop-out of a response, because you are saying the fact a certain percentage of American students don't know who Thomas Jefferson is an indicator of the failure of the American public education system, but then turn around and say it is OK for Japanese to not have that same sort of knowledge in Japan.

Yes, students in Japan learn about hurricanes and tsunamis...and students in the Midwest learn about cattle and agriculture.

Do I wish all students of American (and Japanese, for that matter) understood the government they live under? Absolutely...but that is partially a bias on my part, as it is important to me. Would I rather they learn that then how to, say grow food without E.Coli? Well, not if it is the food I am going to eat. There are different priorities for different areas.

I do agree with you. The system that worked 50 years ago in the US doesn't work now. I think a lot of that is simple finances. The best investment in a tax dollar is toward education, but cuts lead to being forced to invest more into heathcare, welfare, courts and prisons, etc...but that is an argument for another day.

I think there is some truth to this, and I appreciate you clarifying your point. No teacher goes into teaching for the money, and it is one of the few career paths that require a high level of education for the pay of a full time fast food employee. I would also agree that getting good teachers to stay in "bad schools" is one of the great difficulties of the education system as it is. I know Chicago is looking at putting really good principals into "bad schools" as a way to keep good teachers there. As different school districts experiment with different systems, let's hope there are some positive results.

Imagine picking up a newspaper or magazine that was devoid of photographs.

How much money would have been made in donations to Haiti without the pictures sent to our newspapers and TVs?

And I read your clarification, and I still think my post has merit. You can pick and choose which artists are worthy of existence and which are not, but you can't pretend there is no interconnectivity between creative thought and human advancement.

Even if you think someone's existence has no social worth, I am glad you weren't the one to give Da Vinci the heave-ho so another barber/bloodletter could have a job.

You may not see the worth in a said artist's or photographer's work, but if it inspires someone in a way that makes the world a better place, then who are you to say their existence is meaningless?

MMM, just out of curiosity, does imagination = art, for you?

It depends on how imagination is applied....but to answer your question, no I would not say imagination is art.

I am as interested in getting in a discussion about defining art as I am in water torture. My point still stands that without artists we would still be living in caves. I think that being an artist doesn't mean you can't be something else. There are certainly doctors, lawyers and business people who are artists in both the traditional sense as well as artists in their own right.

Salvanas says he would sacrifice 50 artists for three doctors, but there are all kinds of doctors. I would hope the artistic talents of those poor artists are transferred to those doctors so they can find the most creative and effective ways to solve their patients' dilemmas.

If you're aiming to be a historian and claim to know how important art, creativity, and design have been through the course of human history then you should know how important it is to embrace creativity today.

I would not rather 50 less artists and 3 more qualified doctors because that's now how we work as humans. I don't want someone becoming a doctor if they do not want to. I don't want MY doctor thinking every day how much he'd rather be doing something else but couldn't because he was not allowed to.

Now here's a video to help illustrate what I mean by saying how important creativity is today, and that we cannot have an over saturation.

Tim Brown on creativity and play | Video on TED.com Mind you, this video is about 27 minutes long.