Tattoo in public pool
 

Hi, Yesterday I was told at my local public pool that I had to cover my tattoo. I know this is normal for private pools and gyms but on what grounds can they refuse entry to a public facility to someone who pays the local taxes?

So they can refuse entry to yakuza without saying "yakuza".

I would think it to be even more common in public places, as there is more exposure to, well, the general public. And, although my knowledge of yakuza's preference in pools or gyms is limited, I could only assume allowing others to display their tattoos would have more potential to create complications for the owner(s) in a public place than a private.

I am guessing you are in japan? They do that so they can refuse entry to Yakuza members.

Is the yakuza problem in japan really that bad?

It depends on what you consider "bad". Plenty exist, and are often very obviously so. Do they usually do anything? No. But they tend to make people uncomfortable, and can cause businesses problems... So they will ban them the way they can without actually pointing out the underlying reason by blocking the most popular way of displaying affiliation - tattoos. As tattoos aren`t popular with the rest of the population, it`s a pretty easy way to block the people they want to block without blocking those they don`t.

I have met a few in my time here, and they`ve all been "normal" people. Long long ago one of my friends went out with a guy who was low level, and he was pretty understanding about the whole thing and before going out anywhere he`d actually call to check the policies. (刺青入ってるんやけど、どうや？) Apparently if confronted about it at the place he`d have been obligated to make a scene, and didn`t want to.

:eek: ,first time to hear this. Why?

Am I right in thinking it's not so much the ~yakuza~ per se who cause the greatest problems, because as you say, they're pretty laid back for a gang culture, but the chinese gangs who also have tattoos and well, make the yakuza look like a bunch of pussycats. That's what I heard anyway; that the yakuza are becoming increasingly more subtle and the chinese/S.E Asian gangs are moving to fill the void for violent gang crime. Not that people's leeriness about yazuka is unfounded, but still... I guess might explain why some places are rigid about even tourists with tattoos entering.

No, the tattoo bans are very long-standing in Japan and were definitely implemented to keep out the yakuza. If they keep out members of other gangs then I'm sure the management is quite happy with that as a side-effect though. I wouldn't call the yakuza pussycats either, they still have a lot to do with the drug trade, intimidation and all kinds of fraud as well as still being involved in plenty of murders including the assassination of the mayor of Nagasaki not so many years back.

As for the question on what grounds do public swimming pools ban people with tattoos, well, on the grounds that the majority of their patrons are quite happy to see that ban in place. If the public thought that the ban was unreasonable and unfair, then it would have to be removed. Currently the public here does not think so, therefore the bans remain.

I don`t have anything other than hearsay to go on for the Chinese gang stuff - so take it with a bit of salt. Plus, they`re not a huge problem around here. It seems they hang out more in Osaka and Tokyo... We`ve got Brazilian and Iranian gangs in these parts. The Iranians seem to have calmed down a bit but Brazilians have taken their place. In general though, it`s more theft and swindling than outright violence these days. Back long long ago, you could get beat up by the Iranians for not buying their fake phone cards...

I think the real problem is more the "wannabe" yakuza. The young guys in their teens who think the way to be a big bad yakuza is to make huge scenes, get big obnoxious tattoos, and stir up trouble to "prove" their strength. As the Yakuza is a business in the end, these guys aren`t the best people to be members, so sort of get ignored or used for dirty work when the real thing doesn`t want to get their hands dirty. They also (inadvertently I am sure) stir up business for the real guys by creating a problem businesses want someone to block.

And a couple random stories... Once long long ago as I was walking home from school a (clearly out of it, insanely laughing) homeless guy came up on his bicycle and tried to grab me. I was walking along a river side and the sun was going down. There was no easy way to quickly get somewhere populated or into a building. I screamed and did my best to dodge this guy with horrific images of being raped, killed and tossed into the river. On the other side of the river one of those loud irritating motorcycle gangs was apparently gathered and doing their thing... And the spotted what was happening. They came over at full speed, the guy ran off, and then asked me if I was okay - etc. I guess the guy had a history of molesting girls walking home so they "kept an eye on him". They gave me a ride home, and were really nice in the end.

And... There is a very obvious yakuza house in an area I frequent. I`ve walked past it a bunch of times. One time a guy was out washing the car with his shirt tied around his waist making it a very obvious statement about who they were. My son of course commented on the huge picture on the guy`s back... He turned around, smiled, walked over to us. He patted my son on the head and said "Cool isn`t it? Can you find the little birds hidden in there? My little boy drew them and I put them in so they`d be there forever." I commented on the nice car, and we had a couple minutes of small talk about how hot it was. As we walked away, the guy waved and another guy in a black suit came out and waved too.

How can they ban even Yakuza from public facilities? If they are paying their local taxes and are not breaking any laws they have the same rights as anyone else.

But they`re not banned. They`re asked to cover their tattoos. It`s a policy, not a ban in the end when it comes to public facilities. The full back and body suit tattoos that are popular with them are just a lot harder to cover...
Private facilities do ban, however, and won`t just ask for it to be covered.

The funny thing is, I've been swimming in this pool for years. There's never been a squeak until now. Once or twice some curiousity from other users.

If they have the backing of the law behind them then there's nothing I can do, but I am going to get legal advice as covering up every time is going to be a real hassle. 　

Oh yes, I saw the rules and it does say "gangsters cannot use the pool".

Good to know that they have them posted.

Good luck on legal action over covering a tattoo.

I am pretty amazed that it is posted as "gangsters". What sort of wording are they using, exactly? And where exactly is this?

Really, I doubt you`ll get anywhere at all as blocking tattoos is not racism, and tattoos are not protected by law. They`re looked on as a gang symbol fashion choice - not something that will get people up in arms about if blocked. Even if you are a resident of the town/city and pay taxes - you still have to follow the rules in public areas. One of the rules is to cover your tattoo.
Paying taxes doesn`t make you immune from that.

Forgive me if this sounds naive; I have no real experience with legal business... But, wouldn't it cost more to take legal action than to just cover up -- or find other pools?

That would tally. This was all stuff I heard off of a couple of Japanese guys living in downtown Osaka. Then again, they weren't exactly roughty-toughty hang around after dark sorts either, so I did kind of guess this wasn't their first-hand experience and not to take it all too literally.

Yeah, mugging, beatings and (rarely) attempted arson was the sort of thing I was being told about.

Not that I'm claiming to have much experience with these things, but I was with some friends at a nightclub in osaka and (whilst I was in the ladies) one of the girls was getting pestered by some overly-fresh frat boy and apparently, some yakuza guy (or someone who appeared so anyway) stepped down out the VIP area and was all "Hey, the lady isn't interested. Go away", which was pretty decent of him (if it's true. Girl in question relatively prone to misinterpretation and hyperbole).

Another friend and I also ran into a couple in the narrow section between a crosswalk and the underground car park, who were super polite and stepped aside for us (we had massive boxes destined for the post office at the time) and were all smiles and 'ganbatte'. So yeah, compared to some of the nasty lot you get in London (who aren't even gangsters usually) I don't think they really go out of their way to cause problems for the general public.

I think you`re mostly right - but it`s not a good thing to romanticize them either. In the end, they do generally have their hands deep into crime. I don`t really think that people should be as terrified of them as individuals, but I also certainly don`t think people should be welcoming of them by any stretch.

I think there is a big difference between the real gangsters and the wannabe misguided kids (like the ones who took me home). I never approved of my friend dating one, and in the end he did screw her over (or rather, he tried to "lend" her to some of his friends while drunk, and those friends tried to get her drugged up as to not fight with them... And was completely stunned that she broke up with him because of it.) It seems like there is a decent person there with a whole different moral structure there under the surface with completely different ideas of what is acceptable and what is not.

No, I completely agree. I was of the same opinion when the girl in the club wanted to go back there specifically just on the grounds that her 'hero' might be there again. The juvenile delinquents might be just as bad, but at least they didn't decide to try and make a career out of it. Half of them at least have just fallen into it for arbitrary psychological reasons.

It's the whole gremlins thing to me. They might look harmless, and indeed be harmless half the time, but I can just imagine what they're like after midnight, and I don't like the thought of that one bit.

I agree with Nyororin, do not romanticize the yakuza. They are a part of organized crime. The fundamental structure is like the presentation of the Italian mafia in The Godfather or Goodfellas: They have to have a presence, and a positive one in their immediate community. It's once you get mixed up with their business you have things to worry about. (Think of the restaurant owner in Good fellas who asks for a loan from the local Don, and ends up having his business liquidated and finally torched.)

This is from famous film director Juzo Itami's page in Wikipedia:

In 1992, Itami was attacked, beaten, and slashed by five members of the Goto-gumi, a Tokyo yakuza gang, who were angry at his portrayal of yakuza as bullies and thugs in his film Minbo no Onna. This attack led to a government crackdown on the yakuza. His subsequent stay in a hospital inspired his next film Daibyonin, a grim satire on the Japanese health system.

If you would like to know more watch the movie Minbo no Onna. It is a crash course on how a yakuza gang can make life hell for a business that doesn't kow-tow to them (in this case a hotel).

Minbo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The pool is five minutes walk from my house. I've been using this facility for 15 years without any problem. I'm not thinking of suing, I just want to know if I'm within my rights to to refuse to cover up.

This is at a sports centre in west Tokyo. The word was the Japanese for gang member. I think it was 暴力団員. (There are no English rules).

As I said, I don't see how they can refuse even gangsters if they are not doing anything illegal. If they are doing something illegal then put them in jail.

[quote=Philotus;810091]This is at a sports centre in west Tokyo. The word was the Japanese for gang member. I think it was 暴力団員. (There are no English rules).

Sorry. I just checked the rules and it seems gangsters are not actually banned. My poor Japanese is to blame.

Ah, I understand.
Good luck.

I would not think so. They are not denying you access to the facilities - they are asking you to follow the rules and giving you a way to do so (by covering your tattoo). By refusing to cover up you would be breaking the rules, and they would be within the law to refuse you access.

If they haven`t asked you before now it could be due to a number of different things. It could simply be that they have not noticed until recently... Or that they have started really cracking down on things like that... Or that they have started to apply the rules equally to all residents using the pool (in the past, a lot of places would be more lenient to foreigners not following the rules - basically giving them special treatment. This is decreasing quite a bit recently and foreign residents are being treated more equally - in all ways including being asked to follow rules like that pool one.)... Or there could have been a complaint.

I have since spoken to a gentleman whose job includes asking people with tattoos to cover up at public pools. He informs me that he can only ask, not insist, as it is a public pool. I will politely refuse next time.