Last things first, you just inducted Godwin's Law. I didn't call anyone a Nazi, but now you have. I have made my points clearly, and will address you above points before the "Nazi card" was played and then excuse myself from the conversation. I apologize in advance to anyone that responds to my above posts, as I will no longer respond in this thread.

You aren't reading. It is racist not because a person of any race can be asked but because only persons of certain races can be asked.

For the fourth time, by your own words, the majority of "illegal immigrants" in Arizona are from "south of the border". Are these white people? No. These are Latinos, Hispanics, brown people, Mexicans, whatever word you want to call them. But they are defined by the color of their skin, and if you think this bill is motivated by anything different then you are lying to yourself.

Again, if you want to keep illegal immigrants out of Arizona (a worthy cause...don't mistake me) then go after the companies and corporations that hire them. It IS that simple. A five-year-old could tell you which companies hire migrant workers. Go on in and check it out. Thousands could be unemployed in an afternoon AND NOT VIOLATE THE RIGHTS OF LEGAL IMMIGRANTS AND AMERICAN BORN CITIZENS.

How many times a week would you want to show your SSN card or birth certificate or ID to a cop because you have curly brown hair? 8? 5? 3? 0?


Don't be naive. Please. Who is the target of this law?

One year after this law is enacted tell me with a straight face that the number of brown skin people who are legitimate citizens who are questioned under this law will be smaller than the number of Caucasians.

No, probably not. My state's ID would not be accepted in AZ. Are copies of birth certificates good enough? Please tell me.

Why would he be suspicious?

Would I be suspicious?

Oh Jesus, don't respond to it then say "take that bait back". You can't have it both ways. Thrashing? Please. Don't be so obviously delusional.




How many days would I spend in jail? Just curious.

That's the point. Every state is different, so my ID won't be acceptable in AZ. What they are setting themselves up for is no more tourism in AZ. Especially from people of color. Please don't be so naive that you can't see this.
I have nothing against stopping crimes happening in the US by people that shouldn't be here. That is not what this law is about.

And back where we started, and why I will not post on this topic again.

Let's get this out of the way - Not all illegal immigrants in Arizona are drug smugglers. A very small portion are. Not all crimes in Arizona are committed by illegal immigrants/hispanics. Yet, our very own beloved Arpaio admits that he arrests "very few" non-hispanics.

People like Arpaio will certainly not pursue those of white skin.


This guy showed his driver's license and was still handcuffed

I don't support illegal immigration, but it is shocking to see how many people regard them all as evil, baby stealing, drug smugglers. Most of them are very hard-working people. But that doesn't mean they deserve to be here for free; I just strongly disagree with this bill as I don't believe it is something that is economically sound for Arizona. As it may recall when it refused to recognize MLK day as a holiday.

Exactly! Not all imigrants are bad!

If you read the actual bill, which is posted throughout this thread, you don't need to carry a birth certificate or legalization papers etc. All you need is a state DL or State ID or any other government issued ID (listed in the bill and in the John Lott Article).

The fact we have to carry ID, in any country, is a fact of life. Trust has nothing to do with it; police can't trust anyone they stop. Citizens and Legals are not excluded from the horrible question of ID isn't new and you do it every time you interact with state or federal government. The fact is Mexico (Perfect example for this case), Japan, Canada, Europe, etc etc. can ask you for your ID to find your status of legality in the place you are being asked. The only differences is in these countries is they are not hindered by liberal nonsensical talking points of you can't ask me that because I'm of a specific or difference race.

Try refusing ID in any of these countries you'll get similar results in all.
America is no different.

It is also fictional talking point that jobs no one wants are taken by illegal immigrants. A job an illegal takes is a job that a legal immigrant or citizen would gladly take. Illegals taking low paying jobs brings down the income of all. That is why there are limits to the amount of immigrants allowed to migrate to the U.S. at one time. If we just open the flood gates for all to come at once, the country would not be able to sustain it. It is also not fair for the one who have come here legally or have even worked to obtain citizenship.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Amnesty Regrets:
Reagan Would Not Repeat Amnesty Mistake - HUMAN EVENTS

I think some should take the time to read the bill before commenting with only commentary headline talking points.

Arizona is only doing this because it has to. There is an emergency there as with other states.
The Federal government will not secure the border or will even admit they are unsecured:

Side note:

GOP's Graham: No immigration bill until 2012 - Washington Times

"But under close questioning by Mr. Graham, Ms. Napolitano could not say whether she would declare the border secure if she were still the governor of Arizona. She called it an "unfair question."

"It is a fair question, and I'll give you my answer: I don't think it is," Mr. Graham said. "I think since the last effort to solve immigration the border situation has deteriorated." "

Janet Napolitano is head of homeland security. Kinda of her job to know and to secure the borders.

Of course illegals are not blood thirsty monsters by definition.
But with the amount of illegals in the country unable to work breeds gangs, theft and other crime. The statistics on this are staggering and this is the reason Arizona has to act.

Mexico refuses to act on their own country.

Notes:
If you are caught living illegally in Mexico you get 2 years in prison.
If you are caught living illegally in Mexico after being deported you get 10 years in prison.

Do as I say not as I do says Mexico.

What is an "illegal alien"? An illegal alien is someone who entered into and resides inside America without legal permission. By that definition such a person is breaking the law, and is subject to arrest.

Why should illegal aliens not be arrested for committing such a crime? Why should police not be allowed to arrest them for committing such a crime?

Do companies knowingly hire illegal aliens in America? Is this against the law? Yes. Why does it occur? Because the federal government still refuses to implement a mandatory immigration status database.

If a person comes to your company with a social security card and fills out the form saying he is a legal resident or citizen, you must take him at his word, even if he doesn't speak a word of English. There is no way to tell if he is what he says is true or not.

Anyone in America (including MMM) who is interviewed for a job in America is required by law to fill out a questionnaire asking about one's citizenship or residential status before he can be hired for a job. Unfortunately, this questionnaire is never verified by anyone, it is a joke. An employer may suspect or believe that the person applying for a job is an illegal alien, but since there is no way to check a person's immigration statue, and with the existence of anti-discrimination laws, an employer has his hands tied.

Any illegal alien who gives a false social security number when applying for a job commits a federal crime, in addition to the crime of illegally entering the country in the first place.

MMM, what if you were a construction contractor trying to feed your family, and your wages were reduced from the $18 an hour which was paid 25 years ago to the $10 an hour which is paid today? Would you still think that the immigration law was unfair? If one of your children gets sick and you have to go to the emergency room and have to weight 10 or 12 hours to see a doctor because the emergency room is full of "people of color" from Mexico or Guatemala, would you think the immigration law was unfair? If one of your family members was killed by an illegal alien who was driving drunk (figures are hard to come by, but the best estimate is that illegal aliens are responsible for about 5% of accidents in America, which means 2000 deaths, 140,000 injuries, a $11.5 billion in damages), would you still think the immigration law was unfair?

Use Japan as an example when comparing immigration policies. Japanese police routinely check foreigners for their visas or residency cards. Is this racial profiling? Of course it is. Do I care? Of course not, I am here legally, and I don't mind showing my ID to any Japanese policeman who asks me for it. The law in Japan says that foreigners must present their ID/passport upon request to any police officer who requests it, he doesn't need any "just cause" to ask.

Since all of you Japan fans now know that Japanese police have these powers, does it change your mind about liking Japan? Does it make you not want to live in Japan? Probably not.

Reasonable suspicion does not equal racial profiling. I can give a good example of reasonable suspicion:

Let's say an officer notices an individual loittering on public property and the officer approaches the individual to inform him or her that they need to leave. The individual makes an attempt to answer but it is apparent the individual cannot speak any or much English; the individual is not understand the officer's command. The officer decides to run a check. The officer discovers that the individual is in the country illegally.

I'm glad that you brought up this point about government identification. Actually, In some states you can be arrested for not being able to provide proper identification in some situations. State ID, driver's license, or Green card works fine. Military ID works too. Even in Japan it is required that foreigners have their 外国人登録証 or passport on them.

again sorta not
 

Immigration Project A Project of the University of Arizona’s Udall Center for Studies in Public PolicyThe Udall Center for Studies in Public Policy,
below excerpted 2007' policy study;

At the University of Arizona, if you looked at the full balance sheet to see what ( illegal ) immigrants put into the economy and what they take out. In particular they studied the impact of immigrants, mostly illegal, on the economic conditions in Arizona.

On a whole they found ( illegal ) immigrants contributed more to the economy then they cost. No surprise there. Where the supporters of SB 1070 concentrate on only cost, this study also considered benefits. For instance, “non-citizen households” in Arizona had consumer spending, in 2004, of $4.41 billion. That created an estimated 28,000 full-time jobs. In addition that spending “generated tax revenues of approximately $318.6 million.

But then these illegals “steal jobs” as well. Supposedly “skilled” jobs according to pro SB 1070 pundits. The Udall Center found that 14 percent of the Arizona workforce is made up of immigrants but they held a disproportionate number of “low-skilled” positions in agriculture, construction, manufacturing and some areas of the service industry. Almost 60 percent of agricultural workers were immigrants. About 22 percent of food preparers and servers were immigrants. About 35 to 41 percent of construction workers were immigrants. The same for 46 percent of textile workers, 51 percent of landscaping workers and 38 percent of maintenance workers.

Working illegal immigrates contributes to the economy of the state ( Arizona ) and the Udall Center found:

Non-citizens, for their part, contributed $28.9 billion, or eight percent of Arizona’s economic output, resulting in 278,000 full-time equivalent jobs. Their output included $10 billion in labor income, and $3.3 billion in other property income. The state tax revenues resulting from this economic activity were approximately $1.08 billion.

The study concluded that the state of Arizona took in tax revenue of $1.64 billion from ( illegal ) immigrant workers while the amount the state spent on immigrants was approximately $1.41 billion leaving a net benefit of $222.6 million to the state coffers. But that is only what they contribute to Arizona’s revenue. They also pay national income taxes and social security taxes.
The Udall Center study addresses the case of 'false Social Security numbers -What's more, aliens ( illegals ) who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks. Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they'll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers — that the Social Security administration stashes in the “earnings suspense file” — added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus. The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year.

I am sorry clintjm but i hope this shows some people a bit of enlightenment.

"Of course African-Americans are not blood thirsty monsters by definition.
But with the amount of African-Americans in the country unable to work breeds gangs, theft and other crime. The statistics on this are staggering and this is the reason Arizona has to act."

Fingerprinting and sending them back to their country is not a severe enough punishment. Would you stop breaking laws if you knew you were just going to be fingerprinted and sent home.

However, you bring up a valid point about costs of incarceration. Arizona Corrections state that is cost $61.74 to keep an inmate each day. That is approximately $22,535 annually per inmate. That is a lot of money. I don't know if there is enough funding to house like 600,000 illegals or how many there are. Definitely, the employers of illegals must be incarcerated.

Here is a link to Arizona Correction's site - Arizona Department of Corrections

Two things I would like to point out. First, Cesare Beccaria (one of the great criminologists) taught us that in order for a society to effectively deter people from committing crimes, the punishment must be severe enough.

Why? Due to the fact that human beings are hedonistic meaning that we seek pleasure and try to escape pain.

He listed two types of deterrents. Specific and general deterrent.
Specific deterrence means that you punish the individual in a way that they don't want to commit the crime again. General deterrence is when we in society as a whole watch someone get punished and that act deters us from then committing crimes.

Unfortunately, sending people back home isn't going to meet that criteria of deterrence. In addition, food and shelter does not equal a good time in incarceration. Prison life is crazy, stressing, and dangerous. You don't know when someone will try to harm, kill, or rape you. Furthermore, most people are not happy with their entire day mandated by someone or happy with the fact that they have completely lost their freedom.

Second, you will have to explain how the law is a racial profiling law. The law just asserts officers can lawfully question people about their residential status. There are many ways an officer can initiate this line of questioning with race ever being an issue. I challenge you to play devil's advocate and try to think of some. I will also list some examples if you need help.

There is a typo in that statement... I left out the word "all" and that with "by definition" does come out a bit weird so that you can play mad libs.

I was replying to someone who was pointing out all illegal immigrants are not involved in criminal activity.

It should of read:

"Of course all illegal immigrants are not blood thirsty monsters.
But with the amount of illegal immigrants in the country unable to work breeds gangs, theft and other crime. The statistics on this are staggering and this is the reason Arizona has to act."

The fact is a lot of illegals are young, get involved in gangs and crime such as theft, hit and runs which include second degree murder. That being said there are people here that come here just to get what they can for a better; and in some cases they are desperate. That isn't unethical, but it is still against the law, as it is in all other countries.

Your attempt to make this racial is disheartening, and if aimed directly at me is an insult. But it is all the left leaning talking heads that want to push this as; along with comparing this to Nazi Germany by asking for "papers". Please refrain from going that route.

Eyeblast.tv

'View' Gets Heated Over Arizona Immigration Law - ABC News


Absolute BEST Summary:


Watch 04/27/10" Video at mediaite

How about a link so we can see where those numbers came from.

Wow the states gov are making money hand over fist from having them here. And without the financial and criminal liabilites (as you posted none) of having illegals there, lets open the borders, and send them to other states that are in a budget deficit.

Lets start by sending them to DC.
I'm sure Arizona will pay the bill to move them all there.

again sorta not
 

the University of Arizona is in Arizona dude, the Udall Center is named after same Arizona's Congressman from District 2 from 1961-1991 served in congress like forever. Specifically Udall Center for studies in public policy established in 1987 - website listed http/udallcenter.arizona.edu they have buttload of studies on immigration and it's effects on Arizonas economy that refutes all your arguements and fantasys.
California passed similar immigration legislation prop 187' in 1994 and it was l8tr struck down in 1997' by the federal courts ruled unconstitutional.
the studies are located on the website and are in PDF formats these studies date from as far back as 2007' enjoy.
I did'nt post these figures dude, these are from the studies listed above from Udall Center. Yes - your right-wing echo chamber probably has 'better' studies. If you would like to add up figures for financial and criminal liabilities you should start with reading a copy of Mein Kampf and roasting marsh mellows around the campfire.

Well typed my friend. Also thanks for the "Link" to nothing that refutes all my arguments. I'll let you know when I finish reading the "butt load" of studies from as far back as '2007' that state importing another country's impoverished, without regulation is a win-win for a country financially. However a 5 year old can do the math on this. Importing poverty at an unregulated undocumented level does not balance a country into the black nor lower the crime level.

You have also proved my point on comparing this Arizona law to WW2 Nazi Germany that most of the "left" officials, mass media, an know nothing celbs are trying to make. I posted some actual links to videos in a previous post. So how is this like Nazi Germany in any way?

Take a look at France and other European countries if you want to see real rioting on the matter; from the people of the country, who are riotiing because of *legal* immigration.

I'm pro immigration; not pro-illegal immigration. It is why there are laws put into place on entering this country. It is what make a sovereign nation. No other sovereign nation on the planet does what the U.S. does on this level/rate for immigration.

mow your own lawn
 

dude relax and take another cialis. The University of Arizona and the Udall Center for Studies in Public Policy was all made up by myself or the left wing media to confuse you.
best wishes - in not injuring yourself
screwing your tin foil hat back on.

Sticks and stones fluff.
You avoid answering the questions put before you.

Hey clintjm,

First of all i like to say that it wasn't aimed at you, and the same scenario was discussed with the Cambridge police against that African American teacher, some people were asking if that would happen if the officer was black if that would be a issue.

Second is that how can this be not a racial issue? These people have a different culture, language and ideologies. I know they broke the law, and by law i mean political law, they didn't murder, rape or stole anything. They came here to better of themselves, to achieve the American dream, on which this country was fought for. Because this law, in my believe does not contain any justice.

Regardless of all that, illegal immigrants runs lower America, you see them at McDonald's, burger king, plantation field etcs. Let's say we get rid of them all, who is going to run those establishments? I don't see young Americans doing it for a long period of time with such low wages, and older people wouldn't settler for a McDonald's, i doubt a person with a chemical degree wants that jobs. The middle class can't functional without the lower class, all of that means inflation. On today's economy it could have a huge impact, do you really want 5 dollars for an apple?

I am just assuming, let's do the wait and see.

Yup, and also, it's not like we're a bunch'a saints either. Our own kind, our own neighbors do these kind of things too. It's an unfourtanate part of human nature, so please, don't point at the scared-in-a-corner immigrants.

I have not read through all the posts, so this may have been posted already, but I do not see a problem with this law. I have to have my alien registration card, or passport on me at ALL TIMES in Japan, or face up to a $2000.00 fine. Now I do think the fine is a bit steep, but I see no problem with carrying my ID around with me. Could I be racially profiled, well being a white-guy yeah, that would probably be the first hint to the cops that I am not from Japan. I do not think this law is set up to be racist though, it is to protect Japan from the ill effects of having illegals running around. I do not see how this is really that different than the law in Arizona. Yes, a certain group of people tend to be the ones that are going to be affected by this law, but I do not see any other way to deal with this. How would one suppose Japan deal with this, without "racial profiling"? There is nothing wrong with demanding that non-citizens carry around a form of ID on them.

1. The way you used this example was very unclear on the surface.
Using my words and inserting a race isn't making a point well. It simply becomes a bigoted statement. Posting the example like that does not lead to a good result. That is why I stated "if" that was your intention.

You are right that most illegals just come here to work and better themselves and usually the only law they broke was coming to the states illegally. This doesn't make them bad people. But you have to remember why a country has borders and immigration laws in the first place. A country can not sustain importing an impoverished people and sometimes the crime that comes with it at a certain rate at one time. This isn't tolerated in any sovereign nation around the world nor is it in the states.

2. An illegal immigrant in any place of the world can be of any race.
"Illegal immigrant" isn't a race. This new law doesn't even go as far as what can be done any other place in the world: Ask for ID without cause.
Go to any country, including Mexico, and a law enforcement officer can ask you for your ID or even legalization ID if you physically, verbally, culturally apparent you are of the country's race; no matter what, no matter what race; and it is obvious in most cases you will be identified and stopped because of your race if they are suspected. I.e. A Japanese can be stopped in Japan by police and asked for ID because he or she may look of another Asian heritage which has a high population of being in the country illegally.

In the AZ case, there is still lawful contact required. You have to be stopped for a reason that falls under suspicious behavior that does not include suspicion of being an illegal. So AZ can't even do what the rest of the world does: stop you juston the grounds of suspicion of being illegal. Is the rest of the world just racists then?

Why is this any different than the US federal border agent asking for ID and proof of being in the legally; which they CAN do now.
How is this any different than any other country?

3. The work you describe is done by citizens and documented workers throughout the nation. If it was possible to get rid of the illegals in the south west as you describe, the company would then have to pay a living wage to the legal residents in order to get workers. This is another false hood that only illegals will do these jobs as you can see from history and in the states (and around the world) today.

I doubt a person with a "chemical" degree would take that job too. He or she would eventually move if they couldn't find work. Maybe they would take a minimum wage job doing whatever until they find work. It happens every day.

In most states where there are low populations of illegals, this work still gets done. The problem in states like Arizona, illegals will work for whatever the boss will pay them thus allowing them to lower the cost to the consumer against the the up and up company. To keep up the up and up company has to lower wage to its workers that need to pay state and federal income and or property taxes; illegals in some cases can by pass this. Thus the legal resident can not make a living wage in this environment.

Sometimes the company may get duped.

Yes all classes need each other, but to paint a picture that only illegals will do the low class work and citizens or legal residents won't is falsehood. Citizens and legal residents in every country do this work, including in the states. If all illegals went back to their country today, the work would get done just as it always has. Sure companies would have to pay more to get legal workers and the cost to the consumer would change, but it would stabilize to a national level at some point.

In the end the "for a better life" argument you bring comes down to unfortunate fact life just isn't fair and some people are born holding the short end of the stick.

True. The only difference is the AZ law doesn't even allow racial profiling. They have to be lawfully stopped for something other than suspicion of being illegal.
Its a federal law that now state law enforcement can now omg "ask" after you have been stopped.

SURE, there is going to be "abuse" by some law enforcement that do what every other law enforcement in the world do in their country. In this event, an AZ law enforcement official could face punishment for breaking the law.

I can't wait until it is illegal to racially profile a bank robber or such over the police radio so the police will know what the suspect may look like. Having a witness describe the suspect so the law can attempt to capture them IS racial profiling.

A country without borders is not a country. Not all the illegal immigrants we get in America are honest, hardworking people. Many of them are criminals in their native countries, and came to America to flee justice at home. Perhaps this explains why nearly 25% of California's prison population is made up of illegal aliens. Nationwide, about 600,000 illegal aliens are imprisoned. More than 90% of arrest warrants for murder in Los Angeles are issued against illegal aliens. Illegal immigrants make up about 3% of the US population, but they make up about 17% of the prison population nationwide.

About 60% of illegal aliens working in America work for cash, and pay no taxes. The majority of money earned by illegal immigrants is not spent in America, but is remitted to their families in their home countries. This does little to help the economies in the areas where illegal aliens work and live.

Regardless of their immigration status, the vast majority of illegal aliens do not have a high school level education, and as such, generally consume more in benefits than they pay in taxes. The children of illegal aliens who are naturalized American citizens have the highest high school drop out rate of any race or class of people in America, and as such, they are likely to consume more in government benefits in their lifetimes than they contribute in taxes.

I remember a place called Minnie Street in Santa Ana California where I got my first experience working in law enforcement. Minnie Street consisted of blocks upon blocks of apartment buildings which primarily housed illegal immigrants from Mexico and other Central American countries. The people who lived there worked hard enough, but they were poor, barely literate (even in Spanish), and appallingly dirty. The street smelled of urine (though the toilets in the buildings worked fine, the people who lived there brought the third-world habit of urinating in the streets to America with them), trash was always strewn about, and there were constant problems with drunks. The area around this neighborhood had the highest number of drunk driving accidents and arrests of any other in Orange Country. Car thefts in the surrounding neighborhoods also occurred at the highest rates in the country. The cars were seldom recovered as most were driven into Mexico, where it is a simple enough process to bribe an official to get a vehicle title. Illegal aliens in this neighborhood were never arrested for immigration violations, county policies forbade officers from asking about the immigration status of any person. They could be arrested for a misdemeanor crime (one of which is drunk driving), after which they would serve their time in the country jail and be released. Only those convicted of felonies (murder, attempted murder, ADW, drug trafficking, or rape) could be reported to immigration. Hundreds of such arrests occurred yearly (from this single neighborhood), but for every person arrested/convicted/deported, 2 or 3 more would come to replace him, and often the person deported would return again only to commit more crimes.

I would not fault illegal immigrants if they worked hard, lived clean, and tried to elevate themselves to the level of the country they have come to. But with very few exceptions, they don't try, and the neighborhoods in which they live soon resemble the dirty, crime-ridden slums they left behind in their home countries. Dirty sheets hang in the windows instead of curtains, dirty diapers are thrown out in the alleys and parking lots, the sidewalks glisten with bits of glass from broken beer bottles, the air stinks of urine, broken down cars are parted out on the sides of the streets, and bars begin appearing on the windows of the houses in the surrounding neighborhoods.

Here is an excerpt written in 2005 by the GAO regarded illegal aliens incarcerated in US prisons: “They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses, averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien. One arrest incident may include multiple offenses, a fact that explains why there are nearly one and half times more offenses than arrests. Almost all of these illegal aliens were arrested for more than 1 offense. Slightly more than half of the 55,322 illegal aliens had between 2 and 10 offenses. About 45 percent of all offenses were drug or immigration offenses. About 15 percent were property-related offenses such as burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft and property damage. About 12 percent were for violent offenses such as murder, robbery, assault, and sex-related crimes. The balance was for such other offenses as traffic violations, including driving under the influence; fraud — including forgery and counterfeiting; weapons violations; and obstruction of justice. Eighty percent of all arrests occurred in three states — California, Texas, and Arizona. Specifically, about 58 percent of all arrests occurred in California, 14 percent in Texas, and 8 percent in Arizona.”


The negative aspects of illegal immigration far outweigh any positive benefit from it, if there can be any benefit when any illegal alien is fundamentally a criminal.

The crux of the problem with the AZ law is that "reasonable suspicion" and that they are attempt to seize jurisdiction over a border that is not entirely the border of their state.

The U.S. - Mexico border is federal jurisdiction because it extends across more than one state, not just AZ. They have no right whatsoever to enforce the border laws between Mexico and CA, Mexico and NM or Mexico and Texas. To detain anyone with justification they should be required to prove that not only that the person did not have a legal right to cross the Mexican border, but that they crossed it directly into AZ. If this person is walking down a street in Phoenix there is absolutely no way one could REASONABLY suspect that they crossed into the U.S. 160 miles south of town.

Experience and records will prove that local law enforcement will however stop a darker brown skinned person on the streets of Phoenix more often than a light skinned Anglo for suspicion of criminal action.

Just because the law does not endorse racial profiling, does not mean that it is not already a de facto practice and this law will make it even more of a common practice.

I would hate to be a Native American who left the res to go shopping in a major AZ city these days.

Maybe the AZ law should be applied equally to anglos in their state. Force everyone within their juridsdiction to provide passports to prove they belong there unless the live on a Reservation. Something tells me the supporters of this law would do their best to rescind it quickly once put through that hassle.

As for an officer being able to stop anyone at anytime.... he better be able to justify it well if the person was simply walking down the street. There is no requirement for ID just to do that. Now if I get behind the wheel of a car, that changes. And carrying ID is definitely a good practice, but within the borders of the U.S. it is not a requirement unless you are NOT a citizen.

again sorta not
 

you might want to check your figures dude- there is no 600,000 illegal aliens or whatever number mentioned in any GAO report in any prison; US or otherwise.
U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) lists total number of US prison population was 2,304,115 were incarcerated in U.S. prisons and jails in 2008.
Excerpt form GAO report you have above was widely circulated in US media. This was from Ed Koch article printed in WSJ,NYT other publications notice date of report and date of publication-

Imprisoned Illegal Aliens Should Be Deported

Monday, August 31, 2009 4:25 PM

By: Ed Koch (x mayor of New York City)

I have a proposal which I hope the Obama administration will consider and implement.
Immediately, or as soon as possible, the United States should deport all illegal aliens who are in federal and state prisons, and in our municipal jails, to their countries of origin. In 2005, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) issued a report on the number of illegal aliens incarcerated in the United States.
The GAO reported that the number of convicted criminal aliens incarcerated in federal prison on Dec. 27, 2003 was 46,063, and the number incarcerated in state prisons and local jails was 262,105.
*******

sorta not again, again
 

It's amazing how the 'slow motion train wreck' who is also the co-author of Arizonas newly passed immigration law ( SB1070) state senator Russell Pearce district 18 can go before the unavoidable happens.

A short update on Arizonas finest, enjoy!

Russell Pearce career as a law enforcement officer is legendary. A sheriff's deputy for 23 years, (Chief Deputy/Under Sheriff) A judge North Mesa Justice Court for one year, director for the Governor's Office of Highway safety in 1994 and in 1995 worked as a director for the Arizona Motor Vehicle Division * before being elected as a state representative, he says that the half-million mostly Mexican illegal immigrants in Arizona are breaking the law simply by living there.

The Man Behind Arizona's Toughest Immigrant Laws
by Ted Robbins NPR may1,2010 -

Bill Konopnicki, another Morman Republican state representative in Arizona, says that Russell Pearce is sincere.
"I think Rep. Pearce really genuinely believes what he's doing is the correct thing ... and it's hard to argue against that position," he says.
He disagrees with his colleague's position, however. There's little evidence that illegal immigrants commit more crime than the rest of the population, he says, adding that the Mormon Church calls for compassion toward the stranger.
Opponents say Russell Pearce is a racist — a charge he vehemently denies. A devout Mormon, he says he is simply committed to the church's command for obedience to the law.

"I believe in the rule of law …'I've always believed in the rule of law. we're a nation of law"," Russell Pearce.

In 1995, Pearce became the Director of the Arizona Motor Vehicle Division. Pearce was fired from that position in 1999 by then Arizona Department of Transportation Director Mary Peters after an investigation revealed that Pearce and two underlings had tampered with a Tucson woman's driving record.
"This is someone who obviously has no problem with handling police officers legal powers -- and no problem with a little procedural abuse along the way".
The Arizona Republic, East Valley Tribune :)

Aug. 11, 2008 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
Arizona Local News - Phoenix Arizona News - Breaking News - azcentral.com
excerpt: During the whacky LD 18 election campaign here in Arizona past bon mots' - featured the states biggest newspaper the Arizona Republic sticking up for Russell Pearce against a flyer that eluded to Russell Pearce being a alleged 'wife beater'.
translation: the Ariz Republic does'nt think a canidate who knocked his wife
around over 30yrs ago should have to defend himself.
The mailer ( flyer) features details from a divorce petition filed by Russell Pearce's wife, LuAnne Pearce, in 1980. In it, LuAnne Pearce stated that her husband physically attacked her. The petition was later withdrawn, and the couple remains married.

Domestic violence legislation even back in 80's, even back in Arizona have come a longway. And today Russell Pearce is in the forefront of 'traditional family values' and marriage. :)

A petition for dissolution of marriage filed back in 1980 by Pearce's wife of over 30 years LuAnne. The document is unremarkable, save for one, line:

"Further, the husband, RUSSELL KEITH PEARCE, is possessed of a violent temper, and has from time to time hit and shoved the wife, the last time being on February 3 [1980], when he grabbed the wife by the throat and threw her down."
(above legal document was signed by and notarized, Mrs. Russell Pearce. on file Superior Court of the state of Arizona in and for the county of Maricopa)
Attorney E. Evans Farnsworth prepared the document back in 1980 while with the Mesa law firm Smith, Riggs, Buckley and Farnsworth. Now resides as pro-tem judge in Chandler, Ariz.

If this raised eyebrows the past Maricopa County politics should be viewed more closely with a functional gasmask. Russell Pearce currently carries water for Sheriff Joe Arpaio, and Arpaio has endorsed Pearce's campaign for the state Senate seat vacated by Republican crazy lady Karen Johnson. If you'll recall, four years ago, Arpaio’s henchmen had no problem digging up a bogus 30-year-old rape allegation against his then-Republican primary opponent and current general election contender Dan Saban.


USA Today
Arizona lawmaker circulated white separatist e-mail
Updated 10/12/2006 5:19 PM ET
PHOENIX (AP) — A state lawmaker who wants to reinstate a 1950s federal deportation program known as "Operation Wetback" is under fire again for sending supporters information from a white separatist group.
Republican Rep. Russell Pearce has apologized for e-mailing the article from the West Virginia-based National Alliance.
Pearce apologized, but never could explain why he was reading material from the National Alliance . ( Neo Nazi White Supremist group )

Yep anyone that is anti-illegal immigration is a nazi-white supremist.
Thanks again, dude, for doing what the "left" is doing best. It is WW2 Nazi Germany again right?

Despite Russel's checkered past, and for whatever part he may of had is the actual crafting of 1070, it is simply a good piece of legislation. And no left talking head has yet to find something they can really take the bill to task on.

Read the bill.

Take a step out of country when you can and try to call the law official, who stops you to see ID for whatever reason, a racists and see how it goes.

The state is doing exactly what the federal government *can* and should be doing now.

mow your own lawn
 

relax dude.
..., and hug your favorite deputy. Maybe you both could hook-up at your local domestic violence counseling group? ...,you both could share techniques on how not 'to throw your insignificat other down a flight of stairs' over a warm cup of chocolate and donuts.

:rheart:

First and foremost, no one has a warm cup of chocolate. If you mean hot chocolate, people usually have coffee or tea with their donuts.

It is obvious you have lost the argument when you make a comparison of me, who you don't know, to someone who domestically abused his wife.

Try facts with your arguments instead of fictitious and ridiculous comparisons.
Don't do what the media and the a majority of lefties are doing in comparing this to Nazism. It is what has been done since day one with this.

Let the US join the rest of the world in securing their borders.
Let the US join the rest of the world in enforcing their laws, including asking for proof that one is supposed to be within that sovereign nation.
Let the US enforce their existing Federal laws and mirrored State Laws.
Join the majority of citizens and legalized immigrants to stop illegal immigration.

You avoid the facts put before you.

Read the bill.

mow your own lawn
 

let the hot air out of the room, dude. relax your sphincter muscles.

In my opinion, this new law is just going to give police officers a bogus reason to check anybody they suspect of being in the country illegally. Just another brand of racial profiling. :mad:

I'm an attorney & human rights activist & I participated this Saturday in the Anti-Arizona and Pro-Immigration rallies here in NYC at both Foley Square & Union Square.

Arizona's law does nothing but encourage discrimination, racism & racial profiling - the bottom line is its overly broad & unconstitutional.

There's nothing wrong with controlling our borders and ensuring documented aliens enter - but we are a country founded on immigration - the Statute of Liberty beckons those who have been persecuted, hungry, weak & suffering. Our citizens have forgotten what it is like to suffer & need/seek the refuge of a safe country. Our fellow American citizens in rural & border parts of Arizona are jealous of their own rights and "haves" and do not wish to share or help those who they deem less-worthy.

There will come a time when these same people will suffer & seek help from other nations.

The human condition is universal. This isn't just about racism or racial profiling, but about selfishly seeking to keep what's ours, ours, & away from the "others."

- Nishi

As an attorney, which section or page number of the 1077 bill violates which part of the consititution?
Also while you are at it, which section or page number of 1077 encourages discrimination, racism and racial profiling? Can you tell me one country that doesn't give their law enforcement the power to ask a person for ID to see who they are and if they are allowed to be in that place legally?

The "but" in your sentence contradicts the first part and the second part of your sentence. You can't control borders and ensure documented aliens while allowing illegals of any race to continue to roam about the country. The U.S. is a country of immigrants. That doesn't negate the law of being a soveign nation by letting whomever come in as they please.

Really? We have forgotten?
You really have no clue.
I'm sick and tired of people telling us how selfish the U.S. and unwilling to share and that we need to sacrifice more. We have done more for the world now and throughout history in humanitarian aid and immigration to our nation than any other nation on the planet.


yes... yes...Humans, Americans, like all countries that don't allow illegal immigration and keep their borders tightly secured and ask for ID, are selfishly keeping there soveriegn land, economy etc. to theirselves.

There is a serious issue on our south west border. America is not an anti-immigrant nation; quite the opposite. But the law, like any other country must be upheld, to secure our borders. The laws are there for a reason. If those laws are violated, then you see the decay of a nation slowly but surely: Economically and Criminally.

Illegals can range from Chinese, to Mexican, to Austrailian, to any race of group.
There is a federal law to do the same thing Arizona is having to do locally. The law doesn't differ at all from the federal law; there just isn't enough federal law enforcement to do the job now. Arizona had to take action. I sleep well know that this bill isn't going anywhere.

mow your own lawn
 

Ex-homeland chief uncomfortable with Arizona law
Tue Apr 27 2010, API
Former Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge says he's uncomfortable with Arizona's new immigration law, saying it allows police to question people without probable cause.

In United States criminal law, probable cause is the standard by which a police officer has the authority to make an arrest, conduct a personal or property search, or to obtain a warrant for arrest.

The Fourth Amendment of the United States Consitution:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Pro-Immigration
 

This term "Pro-Immigration" is very deceptive. Actually, those who are protesting are in favor of illegal immigration. Nobody has a problem with immigration, but people need to come here the proper way. It is disrespectful to those who applied. Mexico isn't the only country in the world with those suffering and we cannot bring everyone here. We need to decide how many people we will let immigrate every year from each country and decide for what purpose they will be here.

I think it is actually racist to fight for someone or a group of people just because they look the same as you. I know plenty of people like this. It just makes them look foolish. You never stick up for someone just because they look like you, you stick up for them because they are right. Coming here illegally isn't right.

Pro-Immigration
 

Also, I would like to see Fluffy0000's research on the impact of illegals and Clintjm's numbers on the number of projected illegals in Arizona and the crime statistics.

Of course.
I reference what Sangetsu referenced:
http://www.japanforum.com/forum/gene...tml#post810349

"Here is an excerpt written in 2005 by the GAO regarded illegal aliens incarcerated in US prisons: “They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses, averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien. One arrest incident may include multiple offenses, a fact that explains why there are nearly one and half times more offenses than arrests. Almost all of these illegal aliens were arrested for more than 1 offense. Slightly more than half of the 55,322 illegal aliens had between 2 and 10 offenses. About 45 percent of all offenses were drug or immigration offenses. About 15 percent were property-related offenses such as burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft and property damage. About 12 percent were for violent offenses such as murder, robbery, assault, and sex-related crimes. The balance was for such other offenses as traffic violations, including driving under the influence; fraud — including forgery and counterfeiting; weapons violations; and obstruction of justice. Eighty percent of all arrests occurred in three states — California, Texas, and Arizona. Specifically, about 58 percent of all arrests occurred in California, 14 percent in Texas, and 8 percent in Arizona.”

=================================================


Not every illegal is a criminal, aside from being here illegally. But having impoverished people flood the country without going through the process results in these statistics.

There are an estimated 460,000 illegals in Arizona alone. 30 million within the nation.

Again the U.S. is the most open nation in the world for immigrants as we are a nation of them; but the U.S. can not sustain itself by not following the laws on the amounts of legal immigrants we can sustain at one time. Illegals violate this law and make it more difficult for us to sustain or increase the amount of legal immigrants we can allow into the nation.

Some people in this thread seem to think we should ignore the rule of law and simply overlook that fact that people are coming here illegally.

Tom Ridge is incorrect and he obviously didn't read the bill. The bill clearly states that the to question someone, they must have a. Lawful Contact and once A. has been satisfied b. suspicious, without the use of race, of being in the country illegally. He obviously did little to secure the border just as Janet "The system worked" Napolitano did little when she was in Arizona and now.

The fourth amendment has nothing to do with this mirrored federal law Arizona has put on the books. Law enforcement, in any country, must be able to identify a subject that has been legally stopped.

Try again.
Read the bill. Quote from the bill.

The reason this law hasn't been stomped out is because it is lawful.

To all:

If the US is against illegal immigration then it should amend the constitution and throw out existing law. We are not, so unless someone has a better idea how to remove 30 million illegals, and see no where else to start than this solid Arizona law.

Mind you, it is only a start. But seriously, if we can't have state or federal government simply ask for proof that someone is a citizen, we will never end this problem and the crime this importing of poverty, which breeds crime, at an unregulated rate the economy will continue to sink the US into oblivion. Yes the tired, hungry and impoverished do have the opportunity to come. That is what America is all about. But not at an unregulated rate and only if you play by the immigration laws. It is only fair to the nation.