Inevitable Choice to Avoid War
 

This march, North Korea gave a surprise attack against a South Korean warship, sinking it to the bottom of the sea. In response, including the UN, leaders from over 80 countries(Russia, G8, G20) criticized the North for their acts and agreed to make extra sanctions against the country. For years, South Korean government sought a peaceful relation with the North but in return, the North threaten the world with nuclear weapons development and missile tests. In addition to that, the North economic state has plummeted due to their dictatorship as well as hereditary succession of power. As the world started to stop supporting the North, they replied by engaging military acts against the South.
With all the happenings including the sinking of "Cheonan" warship, both South Korea and the US decided that the military operation control of the US to be extended from 2012 to 2015. Let us hope that the North will come to realize that their only solution to survival is to cooperate with the world instead of being isolated, and start that by talking with the closest nation, South Korea.

On the other hand, the South Korean public is going to kick the pro-American president out of the office possibly in the next year.

Plus, there are evidences that the Cheonan was either sunken by the US Navy or the South Korean navy.

This time, Obama has to trust North Korea.

I may be crazy... but I found it awfully strange in the timing in all that. Wasn't that just around the time that there was talk of removing an American base from Japan? It's funny that in the midst of those talks something like that should happen. I know it's not far from a conspiracy theory, but what komitsuki said should definitely be a consideration. Otherwise it was really dumb timing on NK's part. Of course I just read the news that I read and connected the dots... hopefully someone more educated on the matter will jump in, because I'd like to hear from them about this.

First of all, it is pretty impossible to navigate in a 1970-1980s Soviet-Yugoslavian submarine on a very shallow sea close to the coast. Old sonars don't work properly in this environment.

Second, anti-submarine helicopters and planes are very often active in the Yellow Sea trying to find a North Korean submarine. Pretty impossible for North Korea to reach Incheon or surrounding areas. Especially when the huge Incheon International Airport is also a semi-military fortification.

Third, there are few times North Korean submarines were active down to South Korea, but they were always done around the eastern coast of South Korea. Pretty impossible for them to be active on the western coast (the Yellow Sea).

Grow some backbone, Americans. Love North Korea for the sake of stability (and respecting China and Russia).

Yours is just one of many conspiracy theories circulating the web. I too dont know much about the actual incident but I think the idea that it was a ploy to "scare" the Japanese into keeping bases on Okinawa far-fetched. The Americans would have had

IF the attack was staged, then the most likely reason Ive come across is that it was to cover up an accident that occurred between the US and Korean vessels.

I dont think it was staged though. The investigation into the incident was carried out by an international team of experts both military and civilian. If it was staged then there would have had to have been some huge collaboration between the investigators. I just dont think a coverup that big could occur nor do I see a reason why they would go to such trouble.

First of all, the Chinese and Russian governments are still skeptical of South Korea's and America's claims.

The Chosun Ilbo (English Edition): Daily News from Korea - Cheonan Investigators Presented Wrong Torpedo Diagram

So much for professionals when they had been using the wrong torpedo plan for few months.

It's a staged act. Just like the 9/11 Attack. Just like the Tonkin Bay Incident.

Kick out the American military in South Korea. It's the only hope to stabilize East Asia.

I read the article. It seems they made mistake... :cool:

Before then, a British blogger proved that the torpedo evidence was fake. And he got noticed in Joongang Ilbo.

The Sinking of the Cheonan: We Are Being Lied To
German Made Torpedo Sunk South Korean Cheonan
PCC-772 Cheonan: Photographic Evidence that “No. 1″ Written on Top of Rust

So? The truth is that:

1. Half of the South Korean public think it was a false flag operation to discredit North Korea for the current government's policy.
2. The Prime Minister of South Korea just recently resigned from all of the pressures, including this Cheonan incident.
3. North Korea is innocent.
4. Americans should have a positive impression of North Korea, just like the majority of South Korean citizens.

Though i believed there is more going than the initial reports divulge and there many unanswered questions please do not group conspiracy theories together and leave 9/11 out of this. Talk about the topic at hand last time this was mentioned it got out of hand and as much as i disagree with you on the statement i wont go into it again.

I do not completely believe the reports that have been given. However there are too many people involved from a multiple nations. This would be one of the largest conspiracies in history.

As a concerned South Korean, hell no.

The blogger makes some interesting observations but they are nothing controversial. He says that the material was similar to that of a German made weapon and sites an article from Reuters. When you read the article from Reuters you will find that actually the investigative team were the ones that discovered this and South Korean officials were the ones that released this information. That he confirms what the South Koreans and Investigators already publicly claimed is about the only valid thing he says. The rest is his opinion based on a lot of baseless speculation (kinda like yours).

Here is the article he links to.

Probe concludes torpedo sank South Korea ship: report | Reuters

As cornered citizen of the world i can not by into it. I have researched from the day of incident up till now and the conspiracy theories are hog wash and probably some of the biggest BS i have had to read in my 31 years on this planet but it tend to get very angry when discussing this so i wont and we will agree to disagree. If that is ok with you?

I have my problems with the U.S. as a citizen and N Korea for more reasons than i can count but the last thing i would want to see is war.

He actually compared why the torpedo pieces couldn't be a Soviet design. While EU and the USA prohibited North Korea of getting sensitive western equipments. And he debunked that Reuters article... that claims that it was a German torpedo. Reuters reported that it was a Soviet design after the investigation "officially" claimed that it was a Soviet design.

Whether you like it or not, 50% of South Koreans don't believe what you believe in. And they are getting stronge enough to challenge the president and the US government.

If it was really North Korea, how come the Russian government had hard time accepting the official findings? And Russia is no longer a close ally of North Korea. This only tells us that something's wrong with the official evidences.

dude, learn how to read english. it's called having another different viewpoint of a certain issue. komitsuki and stevens explained it well for why they think like this. give credits for that and stop acting like a prick. i kinda miss george w bush when he tried to improve relations with north korea later in his presidency. now obama sucks for worsening the situations everything east of beijing. i want my america back to its peaceful nonviolent state.

everyone who has watch the news should have noted that there were 3 dive site, however the south korean military claim there was only 2, contradicting what was broadcast on south korean tv. the cover up became more obvious when one of the divers died in the 3rd unnamed site. we know it a different site from the 2 official one because they show footage where they drop flowers into the sea that was clearly very far from the 2 named site. so either south korea navy send a man to his death by making them dive in the wrong place or they were trying to recover something they didn't want other people to know about.

all the claim that there is an international investigation is bullshit. no divers other than south korean ones were at the scene, all the foreign investigator got were evidence that was already needed displaced by the south korean. south korea has in fact deny request to dive into the area, so how does the international team do any independent investigation? in fact they didn't, in their statement, they simply state they agree with the finding based on the evidence provided by south korea since they have no means to investigate at all.
:ywave:

some japanese believes US engineered the incident to make US military base more appealing to japanese and korean politic at a time both country were heading to election and anti-US bases were becoming increasing popular. which ultimately lead to the PM's resignation when he couldn't end the base as he promised under such conditions. of course we will never know...
:ywave:

The title of this thread may be oxymoronic, but this thread is just plain moronic.

I must admit i did chuckle a bit. But could you share with the class why you think that?

Glad to be of service.:)

I guess I've just seen too many threads where the US is the root of all evil. Even when we're discussing a communist country that has proven it's lethality with stuff like launching missiles out into the ocean for no reason (or shooting at ships), somehow it always gets back to being the US' fault.

Of course it is because if it wasn't our fault it would be someone else's. This is the way of the world humans always need someone or something to blame for that is human nature. One day it will be another countries turn to take the mantel of the blame game and it will rinse and repeat.

Lets be honest i could sit down and name why every single country on the planet is evil its not that hard.

just smile and nod and know that not everyone is going to agree on things.

I'd like to see you try.

Wait... has it been clearly established that it was a German made torpedo? I mean the only link was that a particular alloy composition was found that could be linked to a German-made weapon. I dont know much about torpedos... but the latter does not necessarily make the former true.

Anyway the Russian report will be released soon. Im interested to see what they have to say about the incident. It is pretty much beyond speculation that the Russians will come to the conclusion that a torpedo hit the Cheonan. Though whose torpedo they think it is will be interesting to find out.

Aniki you know full well its called perception. what you see as evil i might not and vice verse. I find cross country banter about whose more evil hilarious for reason any intelligent person could figure out.

All of the "news" stories I find are mostly quoting politicians... where's all of the hard evidence? Is this stuff available? If it is, shouldn't we be looking at that before this goes any further? I'd like to start seeing some facts about this incident.

It becomes more and more obvious that information and communication are extremely important. When you take them away people can justify anything including wars (without having to rely on facts or science to prove allegations).

Um... there was a whole REPORT that was released regarding the incident and is available if you search "Cheonan incident report". Perhaps you might want to read that?

Investigation Result on the Sinking of ROKS "Cheonan"

The original report is at the bottom of the page.

Comical, challenge the US government? There would be no South Korea if it were not for America, would there? The vast majority of Korea's gross national product is consumed by America. America could bankrupt Korea with the signing of an unfavorable trade agreement. And it wouldn't harm America even 1%

Interesting news today about the arrival of three US Ohio class submarines in the Pacific region. Any one of these three submarines by itself surpasses the entire naval might of China, Japan, South Korea, and North Korea combined. The power of 3 of them together is scarcely imaginable. Tell me exactly what kind of challenge Korea can enforce against America, I'm very interested to hear about it.

And, for the sake of your argument, if your suppositions are entirely true, so what? It's not like anyone really needs to foment a phony crisis to make North Korea look bad, they do a wonderful enough job by themselves.

Whoa there, chickenhawk. If you really hate North Korea, why won't you pull Rambo stunts and kill some Red Communist soldiers with your own hands. While I'll remain peaceful without thinking of military interventions. We young South Koreans know North Korea sometimes do crazy stuffs but we don't necessarily hate it. Think of this as tough love.

Here's a semi-neutral article for you: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/28/op...yers.html?_r=1

I was born in South Korea right before the 1988 Summer Olympics. This is a generation that usually sympathizes with North Korea beyond ideological reasons. To us, America antagonizing North Korea is irrational.

Second, finance is the bigger weapon than nuclear weapons IMO. Better worry about your country's epic amount of debt than some war vessels near China. You are better off kicking out Chinese military and industrial spies in the USA.

Third, Government protests Russia (website). As a conscious Korean-Canadian, I <3 Vladimir Putin and Dmitry Medvedev who try to bring better indirect stability to East Asia than the American foreign policies.

On the other hand, thank goodness the pro-NK party just won the South Korean regional election last month. This wasn't a victory of democracy. This was how a South Korean pro-American party is collapsing from the inside a couple of years ago along with on-going financial-related corruptions.

I hope you understand some of the current situations in South Korea. I know it's very hard for average Americans to understand this.

Nobody is going to fight, so why worry about it? The U.S. isn't willing to lauch a strike against North Korea and it's 60,000 artillery pieces at the moment so why would North Korea give the U.S. a serious reason to attack? Kim Il may be a nut job but he isn't stupid. The US would wipe the floor with him in a major engagement. So the whole thing is just political postureing.

check this out

S. Korean General Arrested for Leaking Battle Plans | Asia | English
Report: S. Korea General Arrested For Spying - Defense News

i guess many north korean spies exist in the south korean government and in the heart of american military bases stationed in south korea.

very accurate sir.

I appreciate it. That's what I was looking for. Unfortunately it wasn't what I was looking for. I didn't get a lot out of that but hearsay like pieces of evidence. I also found out how big a NK torpedo is. That's great... but although the document clearly states "There is no other plausible explination", other than that "the torpedo was fired by a North Korean submarine", the document doesn't do a very good job of proving that or even supporting it with any actual evidence or data.

25 experts from 10 top Korean expert agencies, 22 military experts, 3 experts recommended by the National Assembly, and 24 foreign experts consisting of four support teams from the United States, Australia, the United Kingdom, and the Kingdom of Sweden. I'm sure there are some remarkable people in there... but what a vague description.

And no I don't go around reading these kinds of things all the time. Are all these kinds of documents like this?

What exactly were you looking for? The report gives its findings and its conclusions in fairly simple terms. It wasn't vague at all. In fact I think it was very clear who they blamed and why. I mean if it wasnt NK who was it? Now if you are a conspiracy theorist like komitsuki, then the report is not going to give you the answers because that is what they are disputing (I dont dismiss his theory altogether, though I dont really buy it. I mean if it was a false flag attack, Im still waiting for the follow up :cool: )

Don't get me wrong... I mean while I believe that my first impression of the thing could very well be possible, I'm not like stuck on that idea and looking for crap that only supports that idea.

I guess vague was a bad term to use the way I did. In fact it is very clear and very precise... but it just doesn't seem to back it up with any evidence (that is available). I'm not an expert in anything really... but I feel like if this were about something else and presented in court as "evidence" it wouldn't fly by their standards, if you get what I mean by that. It's a report in that is says what happened, but it doesn't really show any data. It's like a lab writeup that only has the hypothesis, results (as in written without data), and conclusion... but without any of the method or things that show how they got to the conclusion.

I suppose I'm just being a little abstract though. I read in the other thread that you're a political science major so I guess you come across things like this and read them frequently? Are they all like this? Do these kinds of official documents usually go unquestioned? (by people who actually have a say in things, that is)

Hmmm... To me, the key piece of evidence are the torpedo remains so Im thinking that if it was brought to a courtroom, that would be what the NK defense would scrutinize I guess. Now the report says that it was the same type of torpedo used by the NK navy and Im not in a position to disagree with that, nor do I have any reason to believe that the Australians, Swedes and the Americans are lying.

As for whether these sorts of things usually read like this... Um... That is a difficult question. Although my major is International Relations, the only other time I ever looked at a report similar to this was when I was studying the reasons why the US invaded Iraq and the sort of "Intelligence reports" that supposedly justified the invasion (most case studies Ive been involved in looked at conflict in a more broader sense, trying to use different theoretical models to best explain or predict what happened or may happen). So using that as a comparison... I guess whether these sorts of reports read the same depends on whether you think the Australians, Swedes, South Koreans and the Americans are wrong or lying about the torpedo.

Wars are generally allways fought for land and resources, sometimes about politcal ideology or relgion, wich more often than not is used as excuse for land grabs and resource "relocation". North Korea has little anybody wants, but they are starveing because of it's melon headed leader, so kim il rants every so often so he can recieve "aid" to feed the starveing masses..who wouldn't be starveing if not for him.

I see what you're saying. While I have nothing against the Australians, Swedes, South Koreans, or Americans I still think there is a chance that they could be lying about this. I mean, who appoints these people and exactly how qualified are they? That's not to say I know anything about torpedos or anything! So I guess if the torpedo is the main piece of evidence, I think it'd be worthwhile to take a look at some pictures and stuff like that. After a quick google search, this is what I came up with:
BBC News - S Korea freezes trade with North over warship sinking

"They reported that parts of the torpedo retrieved from the sea floor had lettering that matched a North Korean design."

So there is a "No. 1" marking written in blue sharpie. That's the only piece of "hard" evidence I've come across.

Ryzorian, I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying, but I'm not sure what you are trying to get at. Are you insinuating that NK did this for attention to receive aid? I mean it's fun to make fun of the enemy but I wouldn't think Kim Jon-Il is an idiot. In fact if you think about this in terms of motives, it makes absolutely zero sense. I might not be connecting the dots somewhere along the line though. Is there a reason why NK would do this?

Same reason he targets kidnaping South Korean Civilians or landing spies on Japan. He does these things for attention, but it isn't like China would ever release the leash they have on him. It's mostly blather to get free stuff. "Look how dangerous I am, better give me some aid before I blow my cork".

Sooner or later somebody is just going to tell him to shut the hell up.

good point. here are two articles you may find interesting. they are two american scientists think the north korean torpedo evidence cannot be a firm evidence.
US Professors Raise Doubts About Report on South Korean Ship Sinking | Asia | English
South Korea ship sinking: Doubts surface about North Korea's role - latimes.com

do not worry about interesting in conspiracy steven. wikileak is popularizing conspiracy thinking on politics and international relations in public. i cannot complain a legitimate website like this exists.

Wikilinks prolly won't exist much longer if they harrass the Pentegon any more.

I think the Germans will protect him. That is where Assange is now if I remember correctly.

The Germans are a big enough country to say no to an extradition request to the US and they have a pretty good reputation regarding human rights and international law.

Remember.. Assange has done nothing wrong.

"Wikilinks prolly won't exist much longer if they harrass the Pentegon any more."

I guess I'm not up to speed on this... I've never really heard of this before.

Anyways, after looking at the LAtimes article, I found this link in the comments section:
JapanFocus

So far I've just glanced at the intro, but that is basically how I felt about this. It looks pretty long so I'll take my time checking it out. In the meantime maybe some of you guys will want to read it too.

North Korea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

that article is pretty long steven but of interest. I thought I would just put this wiki extract here re NK itself.