I say let them build their damn mosque. I don't see any problem with it. Other people are saying that its wrong, but I don't. Every person should have the right to practice their religion freely. Let them do that!!! :mad:

Fair enough.

You have a more pragmatic, realistic approach which I think is a valid one

For me though... this has little to do with the Islamic building, or Islam or even religion itself and more to do with defending a principle that I believe in.

And I think that for anyone who is not a resident of New York who has an opinion on this (which is not the same or similar in the pragmatic approach to yours) is also thinking about this in terms of a principle that they think has been violated.

Whether it be that they think the "sacred" landmark of Ground zero is being tarnished and that the Islamic cultural centre is a blasphemy or that the freedom for Muslims to be treated the same as everyone else is at stake.

To think point I think the discussion is more political than religious. If that changes (or has changed) I will take the appropriate action.

I am seeing this as well, which is making wonder how much attention I should be giving to it...but I am also a sucker.

I would be curious as to the wording of the question of this poll. Whether it is in the interest of ease, controversy, or promoting ignorance the easy to say "mosque at Ground Zero" phrase is full of errors in four easy words.

I think if the CNN poll asked "Do you think they should build a mosque at Ground Zero" it is easy to expect the mass majority of people would say "No!". I would say no, too. A memorial museum or something along those lines should be built there. Not a mosque, church, 7-11, or P.F. Chang's.

But the proposed Islamic community center isn't at Ground Zero. I think Ground Zero should be treated as hallowed ground, just like Pearl Harbor and the Peace Dome in Hiroshima (one of the only buildings left standing after the dropping of the Atomic Bomb and the home of the Peace Museum there). But blocks away doesn't count.

Anyone who has been to New York understands the meaning of "New York city block" and two blocks away might as well be on a different planet. Where I live I can throw a baseball two blocks. In New York...fuhgetaboutit.

A friend of mine posted this on Facebook. It's worth a watch.

YouTube - Keith Olbermann Special Comment: There Is No 'Ground Zero Mosque' - 08/16/10

Olbermann is WAY too overdramatic, especially with his comparison with the holocaust and the whole "they came for the.... and I said nothing" routine.

But as much as I hate his presenting style... I agree with him.

Goddamn muslim terrorists, building a mosque that's not even a mosque couple blocks away from ground zero! I bet they'll be plotting their next terrorist attack there.

CNN did a survey of Americans and 68% said they didn't believe a mosque should be placed at Ground Zero. I agree with that. Ground Zero should be considered hallowed ground, and there should not be a mosque, church, convenience store, Gap or McDonald's placed there.

The real crime is that the memorial or museum that should be placed there hasn't been built yet.

The Islamic community center, with basketball court and cooking classes that will be built blocks away.

That is not sacred, hallowed ground. If it is, they should probably shut down the adult video store and "gentlemen's club" that exist between the two sites.

It is not at Ground Zero, it is merely in the neighborhood. A neighborhood with an existing Islamic population. And the tragedy there was not caused by true followers of Islam, but rather a fanatical sect using it as an excuse for hatred and violence. This comparison is similar to calling the Branch Davidians representative of the Church of England .... incorrect even though both are Christian, and offensive to the core group of believers.

As MMM said there is a question of how the survey was worded. In this case wording it as "at Ground Zero" is extremely prejudicial and misleading. Additionally, there is a question as to just who was surveyed. Did it include the Islamic community? And most importantly what percentage of those surveyed actually live in the area?

This is more than a mosque and is indeed a community center. Admittedly 13 stories is no small structure. However, given the location, 13 stories will be quite dwarfed by the surrounding buildings. We are talking about a part of Manhattan where I would expect the majority of buildings are 40 or more stories in height. Additionally, to find any less of a structure being built by any religious community in a major metropolitan city such as NY, LA, Houston, Chicago or Dallas would be extremely rare. In Dallas, they are usually only about 4-6 stories tall, but frequently cover more than a square mile of land - which is impractical in Manhattan.

As for the opinions of the 9/11 victims families, I would hope they would appreciate an end to the emotional wrangling that politicians and some religious figures insist on using them for. It is time to finish the memorial and treat is as a memorial, not an open wound to continue prodding.

For once I agree with you.

Quit putting the entire Muslim race down!!

I can't wait to be able to be a little more happy to have to celebrate my little sister's birthday on such a tragic day . . .

I COMPLETELY agree.

More people other than Bill Maher need to be saying this.

Yea wow! That's what this whole thing is about. I didn't catch the end of his post, so I thank you for quoting that Ronin.

A lot of this is people screwing with your minds by putting fancy (false) wording on surveys to get votes so they can take a slice of the pie... which unfortunately will come right out of everyone's pockets.

I might've thought differently about this type of thing 5 or so years ago, but being separated from American television and newspapers has really allowed me to see this crap for what it is.

For all of you elitist people out there who think you are better than Islamic people, make an effort to show it and bare your generosity to them by allowing them to build it. What we're talking about is so trivial. Like other people have said, if it were a church this wouldn't even make the news. It's like bitching about a Del Taco being built in your neighborhood instead of a Taco Bel (or a McDonalds instead of a Wendys). I feel like this is in a sense a conversation about brand names.

Kinda weird but interesting way to put it.

Wow... what a childish statement.

Furthermore, its alright to be nasty about ANY religion.... but its the WAY in which you are nasty about it that is the issue.

I think I am confused. You are pro-church but anti-mosque?

And actually what you describe is not how things work in America. Recently in California a vote to ban gay marriage passed (52%-48%) but that vote has now been deemed unconstitutional by the District Court. Just because the majority vote for it, doesn't mean it is lawful or right.

And there has been no vote on allowing an Islamic community center blocks away from Ground Zero, there were just a poll done by CNN. That does not constitute a vote.

If a legal action were to be taken to block this center's construction, it would be unlawful and unconstitutional. There is hardly any way to deny that.

You didnt understand how my post was relevant?

You suggested that there was a double standard when it came to being nasty about Islam versus being nasty about Christianity. I was simply saying that "being nasty" is not the issue here. The issue here is that people are challenging the rights of others who happen to be in a minority.

Furthermore, there are safeguards in most democracies that guarantee particular rights and responsibilities to minimize the "tyranny of the majority" effect.

Put simply... basically there are certain things in democracies which it doesnt matter if you are in the majority or not. One of these things is freedom to worship whichever God you want to and not be discriminated it because of it.

I didn't see any reference to your opinion being childish, though I will admit to inferring that it was ill-considered.

When you discussed a faith-based community center that is referring to religion.

As for majority opinions, in both the U.S. and the U.K. (unless things have changed since Prince Charles's last major controversial building project) the majority opinion is not consulted for construction of buildings.

If the property owner applies for a building permit and the details of the planned structure are within the building codes, the building goes up.

There are rare instances for public safety where some businesses are not permitted to use the building (in Dallas it can't be sexually oriented within a certain distance of a school or day-care), but that granting the right to build is constutionally protected against anything referring to the religious beliefs of its owner or other potential users/occupants.

Trust me, if it were not I would be protesting in person some of the construction near my home.

Oh, I wouldn't say there won't be some budging on this because you finished with an excellent summation of what is the most offensive part of the whole issue for me. People are going to have these emotional, and unfortunately too often prejudicial, reactions to events. I don't approve, but I do understand and accept that it will happen.

However, it was the prejudicial survey by CNN with no rebuttal whatsoever, and the insensitive raising of the "issue" on an international scale that was most offensive to me. You are absolutely correct that without the potential for fomenting hatred of a minority group of people, CNN nor anyone else, would have had any reason to make a major news story out of someone applying for a permit to build a neighborhood community center.

This is blatant scandal mongering at the expensive of those suffering most from the events of 9/11 and it is disgraceful.

No; the intent of those who have perpetuated it as a "Ground Zero Mosque" rather than a neighorhood Islamic community center would be either racist or completely ignorant..... and I have no patience for either in the news media.

Miss Misa, without that poll, what would you think?

MMM. let's examine the poll that is the source of the controversy.

It was not conducted by CNN. It was conducted by a private company owned by who-knows-what. The first publication of it was in Time Magazine.

But when the results were broken down, get a load of a bit clearer truth....

"Broken down by borough, Manhattan was the most in favor of the mosque, with only 36 percent of residents against it. On the other end of the spectrum was Staten Island, where 73 percent of respondents were opposed."

Ground Zero is in Manhattan if anyone missed that point and those in Manhattan have the least objections. So the rest of the world needs to butt out of their business.

Not only that, there is no part of it to be a mosque and no one has objected to the regular Islmaic prayers have been conducted there ever since 9/11 for the Islamic victims that were killed at the Towers.

I'm getting tired of this National "Muslim" hate I see so often. It's really sad that this is a debate. There are opposing views I can understand I can only imagine what it's like for these families. Still, it would be nice if we could accept Muslims as normal people and not hate on them so much . . .


No. 9/11 does not justify hating all Muslims. Nine years ago it could be understood a little, now it's just sad in most cases


I can however, sympathize with those involved a little. I just hope that one day, even they will be able to see Muslims as normal people who deserve an equal chance.

I don't think the question is whether or not someone likes Islam, but whether or not the community has the right to build a community center in Manhattan.

I think it is hard to deny the fact that they are acting perfectly within their rights.

So what is the argument against? It's mostly emotional. "It doesn't feel right","It's in bad taste","It feels too close"

People have the right to have those feelings, but I don't think it is fair to put the responsibility of someone's feelings on a community center.

At one point they were actually asked to consider another location. But this location is in the community it will serve and nothing else was viable in a more remote location. To build a community center where the members of the community cannot get to it reasonably is a wasted effort.

Its been more 15 years since I was in that neighboorhood, so I don't recall how far 2 blocks would be but it certainly isn't all that close.

I do understand learned dislikes. My father taught foreign students and I have a deep seated distrust and dislike for a certain nationalities that I had problems with during that time. I have to suppress my gut reaction when I meet someone from those countries that I will probably never outlive. (Ironically one of them is an Islamic country) But I refuse to allow other people to be judged by what I was subjected to years ago by a series of individuals, simply because their culture/government endorsed their behavior at that point in history.

9/11 was an inside job, clearly.

There's so much evidence on it that it just boggles my mind how people are still in the dark about it after 9 whole frikken years LOL.

but yeah I think they've approved that Mosque on purpose, they want to get the American people to hate the Muslim people so that could further their cause for the wars in Iraq + Afghanistan and I'm guessing pretty soon Iran as well. Not saying I sympathize for the Sharia Law, their Prophet Mohammad or the Hadith, in fact I'm out right against Islam as a "religion" simply because it's way too radical to adapt in western culture, just saying that all this is orchestrated for a reason.

Gotta love them conspiracy theories and the nutjobs that breed them.

They actually made some kind of documentary on those conspiracies. Crazy stuff!

Well, all the terrorists were men. Maybe men's rooms shouldn't be built at ground zero?

I would be surprised if I was the first one.

If an Islamic community center is in poor taste near hallowed ground, wouldn't a strip club and adult video store also be in bad taste?

Maybe this link can show how "hallowed" the neighborhood this community center would be in.

"Hallowed Ground" | History Eraser Button

EDIT: Just found this interesting link about the area around Ground Zero

For Strippers Near Ground Zero, Mosque Debate Goes On But It's Business as Usual - Metropolis - WSJ

I think its the only way to get through to Will. Sorry for that. :p

..........؟
 

We all know that America is the cause of the events of September
And then put the Quran to say that the work of a Muslim
How much they are stupid and the American people believe the lies of state
We are Sunni Muslims, but became agitated to the right
I do not know when will you learn

joody, religious discussions are not allowed here. This thread is beginning to lean in the against-the-rules direction. Let's keep it on track.

Well . . .She's a little autistic, I don't think she really notices it as much as others would . . .it's just a birthday to her. Do you think that's a good thing?