Individualism versus gregariousness

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by Japania

After having read all these posts I find this issue even more difficult to understand.
Let me get this straight: Japanese are polite, respectful but they don't intervene even when they could help other people... why?

I was thinking that we too might hesitate to help someone indifficulty if there was a risk of being hurt. At one time it was okay to hitch hike but now its dodgy-- either side.

If there is a fight in the street-- who wants to dive in and try to stop it? One might get knifed. Oh what a world we are making.

also are we respectful towards a japanese person? we all should have good manners but they often lack here in UK.

[dogsbody70]

Japanese Groups


wonder if anyone has views on this? Is it all outdated and inaccurate?

[cranks]

At 38, I'm not really young, but I'm at least Japanese, and here is my take on it.

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

Japanese Groups
wonder if anyone has views on this? Is it all outdated and inaccurate?

"Human race's emphasis on society extends far beyond the family.  It runs through every facet of their lives.  Every person's life is centered in a society, and exclusion from such a structure, whether it be school, work, or play, is the equivalent of non-existence. "

I don't know how you feel about these sentences, but they don't sound too strange to me.

It's not that it's outdated or inaccurate, but it's too much of a broad stroke to say anything practical or empirical. I feel MMM's observations such as "expressing genuine gratitude at the scene", "saying thanks the next time you meet them", etc., quite precise and practical, although they are on the more formal/classic side, but the article in your link is more literary, aiming at stoking interest in a completely different culture or in the fact that completely different cultures even exist outside of western ones. I'm not saying it's a bad read, it's definitely interesting in a sense that some English speaking people saw Japan this way, and it is doing a good job on introducing some Japanese ideas, but it's still a story and not a study, so it should be treated as such.

Now, ON(恩) does play a big part in East Asian culture, and I myself do feel "indebted" when someone gives me a favor. But western people aren't oblivious to ON either, they also give back when they are given, like if someone invite you for dinner, you'll probably invite them back. After all, we all are social beings, and we can't survive without having good relations with others. What IS different is the protocols. Japanese people tend to give back the tiniest favors, and they want to do it promptly.

I think not helping strangers is just a big city attitude, you see exactly the same attitude in London or Paris. One time I got my wallet stolen in Paris, and had to walk 2 hours hauling my 40 lb. suitcase, with no money, no food, no water, and the temperature was like 110 degrees. Nobody offered help, but once I talked to a cop who then yelled to the crowd, apparently to find someone who spoke English, a couple came up and took me to the police station. The guy even gave me something like $30 so the next day I could go to the airport (I had my ticket and passport). I was too exhausted to ask his address, and I still owe him that money. I guess I'll give this ON back if I find some French guy stranded in the middle of Tokyo.

Anyway, about American Occupation and social changes. Losing WW2 brought a big change to Japan for sure, but I wouldn't put it beyond the extent that Germany experienced changes after the war. Sociologically, it is nothing compared to 明治維新, and the collection of social movements called 大正 デモクラシー in the 1910's and 1920's were also pretty significant. How traditional people still are vary depending largely on where you live and what kind of people you hang out with, so it is hard to come up with a general ballpark figure that applies to the whole Japanese society. We've gotta get a more magnified view to have any idea on it.

[dogsbody70]

hello there cranks-- Its great to have your opinion and so much of your message makes good sense. I really think you have covered everything really well and clearly-- thank you so much.

[cranks]

どういたしまして、Dogsbody。
Hope I wasn't on the soapbox too long. I tend to do that.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by dogsbody70

HI Columbine thanks I realise that was written a lobg time ago and of course many changes. Several of my other books talk about "ON". not only her book.

Yeah, just thought it worth mentioning as many people hear rave reviews about her works and then assume it's all gospel without fact-checking first. Should have known you're more sensible than that!

[dogsbody70]

Ha Ha I understand very well Columbine. Too many books written about Japan are by westerners. I confess I did wonder how Benedict could write as if she knew everything about the Japanese-- when she was never there. That is strange indeed.


Ihave a wardrobe full of books about history/society/. I recently purchased a book by a chap who has lived in Japan since the forties--- thats quite interesting.

My friend bought me several books also re history-- she certainly behaves as if she always owes someone a return favour-- she deals with it by giving gifts.

I remember at Christmas time she told me she has too many cards and what a burden they are to her. New Year Seems to be a special time for exchanging gifts.

If I had to write about we Brits-- I am not sure I would know what to say about us: so maybe it takes an observer from outside to see.


Sorry if Ihave wandered from the path of Gregariousness.