Individualism versus gregariousness
 

I’ve heard that while in Western countries individualism prevails, in Japan there is a culture of gregariousness. Do you think it’s true? Could somebody set a comparative example?

Hi there Japania what do you mean by gregariousness. You mean mixing well with others?

group system? Harmony?

I’d say that an individualist thinks using ‘I’ and a gregarious person prefers to think in terms of ‘we’. The gregarious one seeks and enjoys the company of others. For example, a gregarious person would prefer to travel in group than on their own.

I think you are correct in the first sentence, but not correct for Japan in the second.

The concept of social harmony as it is seen in Japan is very hard for Westerners to wrap their heads around, as it is so foreign. It took me years, and I am not 100% sure I fully get it.

The Japanese idea of acting for the "we" is not about preferring to travel in groups or be in big groups. It is not about being "social" in that sense of the word.

A few examples, in Japan there is more consciousness of "circles of influence" and ranking within those circles. This isn't militarist, it is actually comforting. It gives the proper clues to communication. This is true not only in business, but also socially. People are aware of each other's ages and act accordingly. For example if I were to go out to dinner with people younger than me, I will be treated as the "host" and will pay the bill...every time. However, if I go out with someone older than me, I know he will pay the bill...every time.

Another example would be in the classroom. If a teacher calls on a student to answer a question it is very normal for the student to get "consensus" from the students around her before answering the question aloud. Even if she knew the answer. It is more important for the class to look smart than it is for the individual to look smart.

How very interesting MM.

Especially the eldest person expected to pay for meals.

could be extremely costly taking younger people out.

from what I have read-- and obviously I bow to M M's personal experience it used to be a case of blending with others in the group-- and the final consensus of agreement before action?

My Japanese friend here in UK-- Holds strongly to the GROUP discipline when with other Japanese people.

She told me that if a suggestion would be made to go to a cinema-- that al lwould agree with the choice rather than disagree. Of course she is a senior citizen so grew up in the old ways.


I believe she often struggles with the the British behaviours here in UK but she likes her present freedom to be herself.

I think that an example like this one is difficult to use. Superficially it seems that everyone is just agreeing because they have to... And how horrible it would be to not have the freedom to express your own opinion.

However, it happens in much the same way outside of Japan.

Imagine being with a group of friends, and someone suggests going to the cinema. Everyone agrees and is acting like they want to go and are looking forward to it.

How easy would it be for you alone to say "No, I don`t want to go to the cinema." Chances are, you`d go along with it unless there was some horrific reason you absolutely could NOT go to the cinema. After all, friends having fun even if it`s not your first choice of locale is going to be better than you selfishly making everyone give up and go elsewhere... Or even worse, you ditching the group because they choose to go without you.

Something like this example is just peer pressure. It isn`t a Japanese thing. The group harmony thing in Japan is something much wider. It`s not about friends or even the people directly around you - I`ll even take the leap to say it really isn`t even about the "inner" and "outer" groups. It`s more about how your actions inconvenience others, and how you don`t want to be inconvenienced... And about consequences to your actions.
For example, if you litter - someone is going to have to clean that up. If you decide to do something self centered, someone - another person just like you - is going to suffer because of it. The effect is multiplied the closer you get to yourself (same neighborhood, same workplace, same school, same circle of friends, etc etc) but it still exists even when the other people have no connection to you other than simply being people.

From what I've seen in person and read about, by-stander intervention in Japan is pretty low because of this, particularly in scenarios where no one is in immediate danger or anything. It's not that they don't want to help, or that they don't care, or that they particularly need the consensus of the other by-standers to intervene (and western people do this just as much. People tend to look at the victim and then look at everyone else to see what they're doing before they wade in.), it's more that they don't want to embarrass the person who needs help.

Sounds weird, but I think that the social nature of Japanese culture means that one-sided social 'transactions' are pretty rare compared to other more individualistic cultures. It's not that Japanese people are ~less~ altruistic (as some people would have you believe) it's just that they're used to things being two-way, so getting yourself into trouble and causing another person to go out of their way to help you is a) highly embarrassing for adults; that's what kids do and b) is a difficult situation in which you can give back to your helper from. After all, it's probably a stranger you'll never see again.

"The nail that sticks out get hammered."

I think it depends on where you are. The bigger the metropolis the lower bystander intervention is anywhere in the world. I was in the Great Hanshin Earthquake in 1995, and I was happily surprised to see moments after the earthquake people were going door to door asking if everyone was OK.

I am not sure what you mean by "one-sided" transactions.

That's what I meant when I said that by-stander intervention is lower particularly when no one is in immediate danger. The Hanshin Earthquake was exceptional. I've fallen off a bike, my friend got hit by a car and people were immediately there to help; I'm talking more about scenarios where it would be ~nice~ to help, but not essential. Old lady can't reach the top supermarket shelf etc.

A one-sided transaction is where party A does something for party B without any perception on either side that party B should then therefore do something for party A. The best way I can describe it is if for example, my friends and I are going to the theatre. Tickets bought Dutch. I live half-way between my friends' house and the theatre so I say to them that for practical reasons (it's a long drive maybe) they can stop at my house and I'll make a casual dinner before we go to the theatre. That dinner is a one-sided transaction. It's not a gift, its an effort made on my part that is completely neutral, to make things more convenient for everyone. That, I know from experience, would not work as easily in Japan. Because the person who was offered the dinner would perceive it as that a) this sort of dinner-giving is normally a mutual exchange over time but b) I was refusing to let them make it mutual so C) I was putting them down/myself up.

British people would be utterly unfazed about this. We might SAY 'oh i'll cook you dinner next time' to be polite, but there's no expectation it'll ever happen and zero backlash if it doesn't. There's also little to no substantial gain if it does. I'm not saying this never happens in Japan, or that this is true across all scenarios, i just think it happens much less often, and much less overtly than in the west.

You sound a little judgmental about the Japanese sense of debt and I don't think it is anything we can judge. I hope I am not going too off topic here, but I have a couple of points to make.

One of the positive things I have adopted for myself is finding balance and showing gratitude when people do nice things for me. A "one way" transaction should be (to me) a "two way" transaction. For example, I learned early on that if an older individual pays for my food or drinks, it is important to show my genuine thanks at that time AND immediately the next time I see them. You would be surprised how many Americans are taken aback when reminded they did something nice for someone, and it is still appreciated.

I guess this isn't off topic because it is part of the social harmony of Japan to feel indebted when someone does something nice for you. If you were to make dinner for me before we went to a show I WOULD feel like I should return the favor to you somehow. Chances are I would ask you "What can I bring?" in advance or bring drinks to show my thanks.

I think this is good for society, as if we are all takers we need a lot of givers. It is more balanced if everyone is takers and givers.

I think that the example of dinner is a difficult one, but I do see what is being said. Particularly so as a friend from the UK is in the habit of asking me to stay for dinner. I know she makes a lot and isn`t doing anything special by asking me to stay... And I know I`m probably actually doing her a favor by reducing the leftovers... And I know that she`s happy to have me there and is not expecting anything in return...

But the me that has lived in Japan for the past 10+ years screams in terror every time because it just raises the level of "debt" I have to her for the food. So I do indeed feel that I need to go out of the way the "repay" this. Not just by being thankful and expressing gratitude - but by actual monetary value. The food she uses is costing money, and gratitude does not replace that. It sounds petty to talk in terms of value, but that`s what it comes down to. In my mind I have to weigh out whether what I have done for her balances the scale.

I would also use the example of, say, carrying a bunch of bags or boxes. If somoene were to help me carry some of them a short distance, it would be a (heartfelt and honest) thank you and done with sort of thing in the US.
In Japan, on the other hand, I would feel kind of obligated to ask the person in for a cup of tea or something. I couldn`t comfortably just say thank you and it be done with.

I mean, think about having a repair person come to your house in Japan. This is probably the best example.
Even though it`s their job, and even if they`re only in your house for 15 minutes hooking something up - it`s still unthinkable to not offer them a cup of tea and thank them profusely. Regardless of whether they`re being paid to do the work, you`re still having them come all the way to your house to do it - they are being inconvenienced in some way by you. You should be apologetic for this, just as they are should be apologetic for the fact that they have to intrude into your house to do something - inconveniencing you.

Last year I was having dinner with some other tourists in a small town restaurant. Before ordering we told the waitress that we want to split the bill. While eating dinner a group of locals told me that something dropped from my pocket. After I got talking to them. When I went to pay the bill, they would not split it for us. I asked half jokingly for the locals to help. But no one stepped in. In the end we sorted the bill out between ourselves. I am not surprised about the lack of intervention. The locals did not mean offence. Things are just different in Japan and there is a difference between kindness and intervention.

After having read all these posts I find this issue even more difficult to understand.
Let me get this straight: Japanese are polite, respectful but they don't intervene even when they could help other people... why?

I would say people in Tokyo do not intervene even when they could help other people. I saw the same thing in New York City and Washington DC. I would not say this is necessarily true outside of Tokyo.

I just came off an 12-hour shift so if I'm taking this the wrong way please forgive me, but judgmental HOW? Because I find that a little offensive, frankly. I don't think I claimed it was either a positive or negative thing, just a thing that IS. Fair enough, maybe I have an observationally narrow view of it, but I am categorically in no way saying either the 'japanese' way of it is better or worse than any other way of things. Neither did I call it a sense of debt; it's simply that they perceive some situations as two-way when westerners might see it as a one-sided thing. Actually, right back at you, isn't your view of westerners as being 'rude' about 'not giving' rather unfairly judgmental as well?

That's the way it read to me, but it sounds like I was mistaken.

You many have not said "sense of debt" but that is exactly what it is.

Back at you, I didn't say it was "rude" to not feel a sense of responsibility when someone gives something to you. I do think it makes for a healthier society, though.

But the me that has lived in Japan for the past 10+ years screams in terror every time because it just raises the level of "debt" I have to her for the food. So I do indeed feel that I need to go out of the way the "repay" this. Not just by being thankful and expressing gratitude - but by actual monetary value. The food she uses is costing money, and gratitude does not replace that. It sounds petty to talk in terms of value, but that`s what it comes down to. In my mind I have to weigh out whether what I have done for her balances the scale. (NYORORIN)


I have read about this issue of indebtedness. That even an unborn child will be born with indebtedness to al lwho have gone before. Somewhere it was called "ON" I believe by Ruth Benedict.

When I do something for someone I do not expect anything back from them though always appreciate a thankyou.

We /ME at Christmas always feel that we have to send christmas cards to those who have sent Us a card.

I do quite alot for my japanese friend, she used to bombard me with unwanted gifts-- I well understand that was/is her way of saying thankyou.


I have managed to slow down the number of gifts--because to me--helping people should be part of what we human beings do naturally. I understand her feelings of course because it can be embarassing to receive help-- but she is a stranger here so I feel it is the least I can do to help her. I am fond of her so like to do things for her.

She talks frequently of DUTY . how important it is.

It is nice to reciprocate but not always possible.

Usually if one is invited to a house for a meal it is polite to return the compliment at a later date.

Again, exhausted, so not going into a long post here, but take Ruth Benedict with a large pinch of salt. At the time what she wrote was invaluable, but it's very outdated now and at the time of writing Chrysthanthemum and the Sword, her most famous work on japanese culture, she had never been to Japan. It's worth reading for historical value, but most anthropologists today accept that it has little bearing on modern Japan.

HI Columbine thanks I realise that was written a lobg time ago and of course many changes. Several of my other books talk about "ON". not only her book.

whether young Japanese feel that way also I have no idea at all

I realy would like to hear from some japanese young people. Have their views.

Times change in all countries I should think-- whether old and ancient traditions are clung to or forgotten I don't know. after all its not that long since here in UK a girl having a child out of wedlock was considered terrible and so many of those poor mothers had their babies removed and taken for adoption.

It would have been unheard of for young couples to live together if they weren't married-- Now the majority Have partners and often children without any comment at all. Just one example. No doubt much has changed in Japan especially I suspect since the American Occupation.


I quoted from Nyororin's message re indebtedness-- and that seemed still to be a problem.

I was thinking that we too might hesitate to help someone indifficulty if there was a risk of being hurt. At one time it was okay to hitch hike but now its dodgy-- either side.

If there is a fight in the street-- who wants to dive in and try to stop it? One might get knifed. Oh what a world we are making.

also are we respectful towards a japanese person? we all should have good manners but they often lack here in UK.

Japanese Groups


wonder if anyone has views on this? Is it all outdated and inaccurate?

At 38, I'm not really young, but I'm at least Japanese, and here is my take on it.

"Human race's emphasis on society extends far beyond the family.  It runs through every facet of their lives.  Every person's life is centered in a society, and exclusion from such a structure, whether it be school, work, or play, is the equivalent of non-existence. "

I don't know how you feel about these sentences, but they don't sound too strange to me.

It's not that it's outdated or inaccurate, but it's too much of a broad stroke to say anything practical or empirical. I feel MMM's observations such as "expressing genuine gratitude at the scene", "saying thanks the next time you meet them", etc., quite precise and practical, although they are on the more formal/classic side, but the article in your link is more literary, aiming at stoking interest in a completely different culture or in the fact that completely different cultures even exist outside of western ones. I'm not saying it's a bad read, it's definitely interesting in a sense that some English speaking people saw Japan this way, and it is doing a good job on introducing some Japanese ideas, but it's still a story and not a study, so it should be treated as such.

Now, ON(恩) does play a big part in East Asian culture, and I myself do feel "indebted" when someone gives me a favor. But western people aren't oblivious to ON either, they also give back when they are given, like if someone invite you for dinner, you'll probably invite them back. After all, we all are social beings, and we can't survive without having good relations with others. What IS different is the protocols. Japanese people tend to give back the tiniest favors, and they want to do it promptly.

I think not helping strangers is just a big city attitude, you see exactly the same attitude in London or Paris. One time I got my wallet stolen in Paris, and had to walk 2 hours hauling my 40 lb. suitcase, with no money, no food, no water, and the temperature was like 110 degrees. Nobody offered help, but once I talked to a cop who then yelled to the crowd, apparently to find someone who spoke English, a couple came up and took me to the police station. The guy even gave me something like $30 so the next day I could go to the airport (I had my ticket and passport). I was too exhausted to ask his address, and I still owe him that money. I guess I'll give this ON back if I find some French guy stranded in the middle of Tokyo.

Anyway, about American Occupation and social changes. Losing WW2 brought a big change to Japan for sure, but I wouldn't put it beyond the extent that Germany experienced changes after the war. Sociologically, it is nothing compared to 明治維新, and the collection of social movements called 大正 デモクラシー in the 1910's and 1920's were also pretty significant. How traditional people still are vary depending largely on where you live and what kind of people you hang out with, so it is hard to come up with a general ballpark figure that applies to the whole Japanese society. We've gotta get a more magnified view to have any idea on it.

hello there cranks-- Its great to have your opinion and so much of your message makes good sense. I really think you have covered everything really well and clearly-- thank you so much.

どういたしまして、Dogsbody。
Hope I wasn't on the soapbox too long. I tend to do that.

Yeah, just thought it worth mentioning as many people hear rave reviews about her works and then assume it's all gospel without fact-checking first. Should have known you're more sensible than that! :)

Ha Ha I understand very well Columbine. Too many books written about Japan are by westerners. I confess I did wonder how Benedict could write as if she knew everything about the Japanese-- when she was never there. That is strange indeed.


Ihave a wardrobe full of books about history/society/. I recently purchased a book by a chap who has lived in Japan since the forties--- thats quite interesting.

My friend bought me several books also re history-- she certainly behaves as if she always owes someone a return favour-- she deals with it by giving gifts.

I remember at Christmas time she told me she has too many cards and what a burden they are to her. New Year Seems to be a special time for exchanging gifts.

If I had to write about we Brits-- I am not sure I would know what to say about us: so maybe it takes an observer from outside to see.


Sorry if Ihave wandered from the path of Gregariousness.