There are 4 Japanese writing systems not 3
 

A friendly debate with a classmate which I thought might be of interest to some people on here.

The 26 letter alphabet and arabic numerals being the fourth.

He said that it doesn't count because it's not "Japanese"

My argument is that neither is Kanji. And the increasing use of the alphabet and especially arabic numerals in Japanese means it should be included (though of course we don't need to familiarise ourselves with it as we already are).

What do you think?

I am going to agree with your friend that there are only three - unless you must consider arabic numerals themselves as a separate writing system.

The reasoning being literature. Even in the silliest light novel, you are not going to encounter anything written in romaji. At least, nothing Japanese. If used, it`s going to be for a foreign language or given name.

When things outside of advertisements and cute little not-really-meant-to-be-read slogans on products are written in romaji - THEN it might be considered a fourth writing system. Until then, it`s still really just a novelty.

I agree, only 3, romaji is like training wheels for gaijin and for the kakkoi effect because English has a cool-factor

I disagree as well. Until the arabic system is intentionally integrated for the Japanese to use for themselves, then it's not another writing system for them.

For example, Signs/Maps etc with English translations on them are meant to be read by foreigners, not for Japanese people to read the English. And the "Engrish" writing seen on products and stuff is because it's "cool" to have English writing on it and has nothing to do with the product itself. And you can tell this because if the English was actually intended to be read then most Japanese would think it was stupid because most of the time it doesn't even make sense.

And romaji is just a crutch to be able to read Japanese by foreigners who don't want to learn the writing.

One of the main reasons Romaji exists at all in Japan is just for the benefit of foreigners.

A traveler will be able to read Horikawa Imadegawa but maybe not the Kanji equivalent. I don't think that this really counts as a use in Japan though, because Japanese people aren't going to be reading the Romaji version.

I do find the use of KOBAN interesting for police stations though. A foreigner without any Japanese knowledge isn't going to know what Koban means, so it seems strange they would take the time to write it in Romaji and not just write "Police" instead...

He was right, romaji is just something "we" have come up with, and its actual use is extremely limited. Chinese characters, on the other hand, were basically implemented into Japanese in order to be able to make a writing system - and thus was a part of it "all along". If not, then at least for a fricking long time. :D

I agree, romaji should be counted as a writing system, but not in a way that makes it seem more important than it is.

I wouldn't have even bothered replying if this question had come from someone that I knew has never even seriously studied Japanese, but since it's from you, here's my two cents.

It's 3. If I attended kindergarten through university in Japan and still said it was 4, I would be a moron. Japanese is officially written vertically. How does Roman alphabet even fit into that?

Where do you see this "increasing use of the alphabet" that you speak of? I've been living in Japan over 50 years and I can't say that is what I've been witnessing. I don't ever see Roman alphabet being used for communication among Japanese. It may be used for very limited purposes as in train station names for foreign tourists and product or store names for "design or aesthetic" purposes rather than communication purposes.

Are you aware that though you might see signs like SONY, TOYOTA, etc, in Japan, those aren't their official company names? Official business names are ALWAYS registered using the three writing systems, and so are people's names.

My point is that nothing important is ever written in romaji unlike some members here still sadly and ignorantly seem to believe (OP not included). You can live your life, as many older Japanese people actually do, with no problems in Japan without being able to tell A from B.

If this is how someone like myself, who reads and writes a few European languages feels, other Japanese, who are mostly monolingual as you well know, would probably be astounded by a notion that we might have 4. They'd go, "What's the fourth one? Am I illiterate for knowing only three?"

Which would be unreadable to everyone who don't know English, and only bring a Japanese dict.
OK most people knows what police means (and not just in English) but still it's reasonable, don't you think?

At the risk of taking a lot of slack, I actually agree with Ronin4hire. I have a few reasons for this. I wouldn't say it's like a super "official" writing system, but it is certainly used by most people.

For starters, knowledge of "romaji" is important. It's used for Japanese input on most keyboards, after all. Furthermore it is used on street signs-- above the kanji name of a city, new signs will have romaji. This comes in handy to know how to read the kanji in situations where there are multiple readings. Although this could certainly be done with hiragana, it isn't on a lot of signs. And Japanese people use the "romaji" to be able to read a sign that they aren't familiar with. This is something I've heard come out of the mouths of eldery Japanese and it wasn't like I brought up romaji or anything like that... it just came about in a conversation.

Not that I read too much Japanese, I do notice romaji in different software and hardware manuals.

Sure a lot of people get by without it, but I think there are a lot of people who use it without really thinking about it sometimes.

Although I do admit I agree with why people think it isn't part of Japan's writing system. I just think that because of its prevelance it kind of sneaks in there.

But Japanese wouldn't read the Romaji, that is for foreign travelers.

Yeah, that was my point :D

this is a pretty one-sided debate :P

My point was that Japanese are using the romaji to read the signs.

I know not so elderly Japanese that can't even read romaji. There might be some people that are forced to use it if they are out of their element, but it is written in romaji to help non-Japanese speakers navigate their way. More Japanese can read hiragana than romaji.

Find a sign that lacks the romaji. Point this out to those around you.
I think you`ll find that you`re the only one who noticed, or if someone else noticed it was because something seemed "off" but they couldn`t pinpoint what.

Japanese simply don`t read the romaji on signs regualrly. I`ve been in situations where there has been a weird place name written in kanji with the romaji above it... And still seen people puzzle and puzzle over how to read it. I`m pretty certain that those who DO read the romaji are clear exceptions.

Including something as another writing system and simply having knowledge of a system are quite different. Romaji is introduced in school first as part of English learning as a way to figure out how to write your name, not as another facet of Japanese.
Write something (other than a name or single word) in Japanese in romaji, and see how long it takes for someone to figure out what it says. If romaji was truly another writing system of Japanese, that wouldn`t be the case.

I think it`s really hard to make this clear for speakers of European languages, as the majority of commonly learned and used "foreign" languages use the same roman alphabet as the native language. But for Japanese learners, most of the foreign languages commonly learned use a writing system that is NOT native to them. Before starting to learn another language, they need to learn the writing system... Learners native in a European language have the tendency to just convert the foreign sounds into their own alphabet - Japanese learn in the writing system native to the language.

If we are to consider romaji as another writing system of Japanese, we will most likely have to consider it another writing system for most languages that don`t use it natively. The prevalence of English has made it valuable enough that there are few countries where it is not encountered regularly and children do not learn it at some stage.

I know what you're saying. It's for foreigners, but Japanese end up using it as "furigana" if they are "out of their element" as you say. Even though it's hard for some Japanese people to read, it ends up working that way. The first time I heard about this was from an elderly Japanese person by the way.

What I'm suggesting is that while the main purpose of the romaji is for foreigners, it ends up being useful for Japanese who might not be familiar with local town names and stuff like that.

You're right though, it'd be easier for Japanese if they just had Hiragana as furigana... but on most Aokans I've seen they only have romaji as furigana for kanji.

I don't think the romaji is there as a furigana to the kanji, it's really just here for international friendliness...

If you put romaji on a form where it asks for the furigana of your name you'd get laughed at.
(if it's written フリガナ then you write your name in katakana, if ふりがな then in hiragana, I have never ever seen it written in English)

I guess I can't express enough that I understand exactly what you're saying.

I deal with people struggling to read/write romaji all the time, trust me. I realize that when writing something in romaji it will take a few seconds to read it (and more for older people).

I agree with you guys very much... but I also kind of have to agree with what Ronin is saying to a degree. I would describe it as like a "sub-system". I'll be frank in that I'm not familiar with the alphabets use in other countries... but if every other country uses it in the same way that Japan does I'd be surprised. At any rate, I guess that's one of the reasons why they call English the "international language".

Honestly though, English is used on virtually EVERYTHING. If it weren't there on certain products I think something would almost feel odd... I think it'd be like missing punctuation or something to that degree.

And I'm also sure that most people I've talked to would probably fall under the "exception" category due to the fact that I'm a foreigner... in other words people who hang around me are probably going to be more sympathetic to these kinds of ideas.

I see what you mean. I guess the question is how you'd have to define a "Japanese writing system".

obviously it's not originally Japanese
but neither is Kanji
the difference being the target audience, or intended audience

You mentioned how other countries use English, many countries do actually use English on a lot of products and signs and just as often misspell it using their languages phonetic version of it.

To me it doesn't feel special to Japan

My books are in romaji-- It does help in understanding-- before one gets familiar enough with Katakana etc. Otherwise it would take even longer to try to understand.


Once one can follow the Kana-- then I guess there is th eneed to start trying to include Kanji-- but I am a long way from that so far.

There needs to be sentences that include the Kanji along with the KANA.

I do have several books including illustrated examples-- pictures to match the KANA or Kanji.


For beginners I think it is helpful to have both the romaji and the Kana to be able to understand more quickly.#
Once one is confident in the KANA then no more need of the romaji.


So the romaji is certainly useful for ME------------

And if Romaji was used to show the pronounciation? Or something like that?

I deliberately didn't call it romaji because romaji is just the alphabetisation of Japanese words for the benefits of Foreigners.

Japanese use the alphabet for acronyms and in advertising.

Of course you can say 国連 instead of UN etc.. but I've seen Japanese use English acronyms quite a lot.

I suppose you could make a case for Arabic numerals being another seperate system if you want to be REALLY pedantic.

Also.. I don't buy into the idea that literature is the benchmark for deciding which is Japanese or not.

First of all my definition of what is literature is probably a bit more liberal. Second of all.. I believe the modern use of the language is how we should judge these sorts of things.