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-   -   Feelings Toward Hiroshima and Nagasaki. (https://www.japanforum.com/forum/general-discussion/35363-feelings-toward-hiroshima-nagasaki.html)

GoNative 12-28-2010 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by termogard (Post 843831)
Not worse. The same. Crimes against humanity.

But Japan started it. No one forced them to invade all of Asia and kill millions of people. The US didn't go to war with Japan unprovoked, they were attacked! I don't see how it's the same in that context.

WingsToDiscovery 12-28-2010 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by termogard (Post 843831)
Not worse. The same. Crimes against humanity.

That was lame. We're obviously talking proportions here.

termogard 12-28-2010 03:32 PM

clarification
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GoNative (Post 843832)
The US didn't go to war with Japan unprovoked, they were attacked! I don't see how it's the same in that context.

Let's see. Japan attacked the US naval base and fleet, right? The US bombed japanese cities.

GoNative 12-28-2010 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by termogard (Post 843834)
Let's see. Japan attacked the US naval base and fleet, right? The US bombed japanese cities.

The Japanese would have bombed US cities if they'd had the capability. They bombed enough cities throughout Asia and slaughtered millions of civilians in their time there.

Plus this whole judement based on civilian targets it's not really accepting that during WWII civilian targets were generally considered legitimate targets. In Europe and the Pacific wars both axis and allied forces targeted civilian targets all the time. Carpet bombing of German cities wasn't just going after strategic targets!

Still you can't seem to see past one strategic attack on the US that had them enter the war and the dropping of atomic weapons. It's seems this is about the only knowledge of the war you have...sad really.

You seem to believe that the dropping of the bombs were purely in retaliation for the attack on Pearl Harbour. You do realise there was 4 years of intense and bloody fighting between the two events?

princessmarisa 12-28-2010 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoNative (Post 843836)
The Japanese would have bombed US cities if they had the capability. They bombed enough cities throughout Asia and slaughtered millions of civilians in their time there.

Plus this whole judement based on civilian targets it's not really accepting that during WWII civilian targets were generally considered legitimate targets. In Europe and the Pacific wars both axis and allied forces targeted civilian targets all the time. Carpet bombing of German cities wasn't just going after strategic targets!

Still you can't seem to see past one strategic attack on the US that had them enter the war and the dropping of atomic weapons. It's seems this is about the only knowledge of the war you have...sad really.

You seem to believe that the dropping of the bombs were purely in retaliation for the attack on Pearl Harbour. You do realise there was 4 years of intense and bloody fighting between the two events?

Is it not true that it was not until after the a-bombs had been dropped on Japan that the treaty and new rules regarding bombing civilian areas were finalised?

Many people think that is was simple tit-for-tat, and on a place such a JF where you get lots of people who think zomg Japan and everything about it is the best ever (^_^) will defend anything to do with Japan to the nth degree without any true reasoning. Often they find the easiest way to do this to attack another nation, such as one that seems to have let them down personally.

WingsToDiscovery 12-28-2010 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by termogard (Post 843834)
Let's see. Japan attacked the US naval base and fleet, right? The US bombed japanese cities.

This is the problem people have. They have this imaginary timeline in their head that goes:

embargos - Pearl Harbor - atomic bombs

GoNative 12-28-2010 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by princessmarisa (Post 843837)
Is it not true that it was not until after the a-bombs had been dropped on Japan that the treaty and new rules regarding bombing civilian areas were finalised?

The a-bombs certainly would have played a major role. Such destruction from one single weapon changed many things. We are certainly very unlikely to ever see another world war occur with such weapons in the hands of most of the major players...

Ronin4hire 12-28-2010 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery (Post 843807)
I more or less see your point of view over GoNative's but this is what I disagree with. It's not a "2 wrongs don't make a right" scenario. It's just acknowledging that more than just the atomic bombings happened in the east. Most people probably couldn't tell you Japan's agenda (if this thread is any indication) outside of Pearl Harbor and the A bombs. America somehow ends up getting guilted into being the bad guys, not because the atomic bombs, but because of people's lack of knowledge on the subject. Nanking is just one of the instances where you can step back and say "wow, the was f^&&$d up." But because it had no direct result (such as ending a war), it just gets glossed over and threads like these are made instead, calling the Americans into question.

The Americans get guilted into being the bad guys?

Whether that is true or not.. the answer is not to falsely portray them as the "good guys".

termogard 12-28-2010 03:59 PM

capability
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GoNative (Post 843836)
The Japanese would have bombed US cities if they had the capability. They bombed enough cities throughout Asia and slaughtered millions of civilians in their time there.

The key word - If

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoNative (Post 843836)
You seem to believe that the dropping of the bombs were purely in retaliation for the attack on Pearl Harbour. You do realise there was 4 years of intense and bloody fighting between the two events?

More correctly - 4 years of intense and bloody fighting between armed forces, naval forces of Allies and Axis. I believe that the dropping of the bombs weren't purely in retaliation. It was a demonstration of American military power to Soviets as well as a field experiment.
Something like "how many civilians you can effectively kill and how many buildings you can effectively destroy on certain area." As for "legitimate targets" - Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't mayor naval or air bases of japanese armed forces.

Ronin4hire 12-28-2010 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoNative (Post 843810)
My god this is the best you can do? This organisation was founded by an ex member of the British National Front (a white supremecy group) and the head of the now defunct Liberty Front which was an anti semitic organisation. They have been involved in denial of the holocaust in Europe and are not considered to uphold any of the established methods for mainstream historical research.
I really suggest you you check your sources a little better for information. :rolleyes:

Or just do what so many do these days and find anything off the net (because you can easily find just about anything) to support your views. It's easy to post anything you want on the internet when you don't have to go through any peer review or have to go through any of the normal checks of your methodology to be published in a credible journal.

To be honest I just googled it and linked a page that supports the study I've done into the subject.

Let me find you a better source

WingsToDiscovery 12-28-2010 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire (Post 843842)
The Americans get guilted into being the bad guys?

Whether that is true or not.. the answer is not to falsely portray them as the "good guys".

They don't have to be seen as the "good guys" either. Just as long as claims are made that are justifiable and aren't blown out of proportion in an obviously lopsided argument where people (such as in this forum) will defend a smaller proportion of civilian deaths for no legitimate reasoning.

GoNative 12-28-2010 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire (Post 843842)
The Americans get guilted into being the bad guys?

Whether that is true or not.. the answer is not to falsely portray them as the "good guys".

Good or bad I hate to think how many more lives would have been lost throughout Asia and beyond had the US not got involved. No other country in the world at the time had the capability to stop the Japanese. Or those that possibly did were completely embroiled in battles in Europe. The Japanese were definitely not benevolent occupiers of the countries they invaded!

WingsToDiscovery 12-28-2010 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by termogard (Post 843843)
The key word - If



More correctly - 4 years of intense and bloody fighting between armed forces, naval forces of Allies and Axis. I believe that the dropping of the bombs weren't purely in retaliation. It was a demonstration of American military power to Soviets as well as a field experiment.
Something like "how many civilians you can effectively kill and how many buildings you can effectively destroy on certain area."

And this is of course all speculation.

Ronin4hire 12-28-2010 04:07 PM

John Pilger: The lessons that should be learnt from Hiroshima | Comment is free | The Guardian

John Pilger is a world reknowned investigative journalist and the guardian is a reputable publication.

Quote:

The atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a criminal act on an epic scale. It was premeditated mass murder that unleashed a weapon of intrinsic criminality. For this reason its apologists have sought refuge in the mythology of the ultimate "good war", whose "ethical bath", as Richard Drayton called it, has allowed the west not only to expiate its bloody imperial past but to promote 60 years of rapacious war, always beneath the shadow of The Bomb.

The most enduring lie is that the atomic bomb was dropped to end the war in the Pacific and save lives. "Even without the atomic bombing attacks," concluded the United States Strategic Bombing Survey of 1946, "air supremacy over Japan could have exerted sufficient pressure to bring about unconditional surrender and obviate the need for invasion. Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that ... Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

The National Archives in Washington contain US government documents that chart Japanese peace overtures as early as 1943. None was pursued. A cable sent on May 5, 1945 by the German ambassador in Tokyo and intercepted by the US dispels any doubt that the Japanese were desperate to sue for peace, including "capitulation even if the terms were hard". Instead, the US secretary of war, Henry Stimson, told President Truman he was "fearful" that the US air force would have Japan so "bombed out" that the new weapon would not be able "to show its strength". He later admitted that "no effort was made, and none was seriously considered, to achieve surrender merely in order not to have to use the bomb". His foreign policy colleagues were eager "to browbeat the Russians with the bomb held rather ostentatiously on our hip". General Leslie Groves, director of the Manhattan Project that made the bomb, testified: "There was never any illusion on my part that Russia was our enemy, and that the project was conducted on that basis." The day after Hiroshima was obliterated, President Truman voiced his satisfaction with the "overwhelming success" of "the experiment".

Since 1945, the United States is believed to have been on the brink of using nuclear weapons at least three times. In waging their bogus "war on terror", the present governments in Washington and London have declared they are prepared to make "pre-emptive" nuclear strikes against non-nuclear states. With each stroke toward the midnight of a nuclear Armageddon, the lies of justification grow more outrageous. Iran is the current "threat". But Iran has no nuclear weapons and the disinformation that it is planning a nuclear arsenal comes largely from a discredited CIA-sponsored Iranian opposition group, the MEK - just as the lies about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction originated with the Iraqi National Congress, set up by Washington.

The role of western journalism in erecting this straw man is critical. That America's Defence Intelligence Estimate says "with high confidence" that Iran gave up its nuclear weapons programme in 2003 has been consigned to the memory hole. That Iran's president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad never threatened to "wipe Israel off the map" is of no interest. But such has been the mantra of this media "fact" that in his recent, obsequious performance before the Israeli parliament, Gordon Brown alluded to it as he threatened Iran, yet again.

This progression of lies has brought us to one of the most dangerous nuclear crises since 1945, because the real threat remains almost unmentionable in western establishment circles and therefore in the media. There is only one rampant nuclear power in the Middle East and that is Israel. The heroic Mordechai Vanunu tried to warn the world in 1986 when he smuggled out evidence that Israel was building as many as 200 nuclear warheads. In defiance of UN resolutions, Israel is today clearly itching to attack Iran, fearful that a new American administration might, just might, conduct genuine negotiations with a nation the west has defiled since Britain and America overthrew Iranian democracy in 1953.

In the New York Times on July 18, the Israeli historian Benny Morris, once considered a liberal and now a consultant to his country's political and military establishment, threatened "an Iran turned into a nuclear wasteland". This would be mass murder. For a Jew, the irony cries out.

The question begs: are the rest of us to be mere bystanders, claiming, as good Germans did, that "we did not know"? Do we hide ever more behind what Richard Falk has called "a self-righteous, one-way, legal/moral screen [with] positive images of western values and innocence portrayed as threatened, validating a campaign of unrestricted violence"? Catching war criminals is fashionable again. Radovan Karadzic stands in the dock, but Sharon and Olmert, Bush and Blair do not. Why not? The memory of Hiroshima requires an answer.

Ronin4hire 12-28-2010 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery (Post 843845)
They don't have to be seen as the "good guys" either. Just as long as claims are made that are justifiable and aren't blown out of proportion in an obviously lopsided argument where people (such as in this forum) will defend a smaller proportion of civilian deaths for no legitimate reasoning.

Which I believe is the position I've taken

termogard 12-28-2010 04:14 PM

Wow!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GoNative (Post 843846)
No other country in the world at the time had the capability to stop the Japanese. !

Whoa! It was a JF member, who used to ask about my historical knowledges here?!:D
What about Manchurian Strategic Offensive Operation?;)

Ronin4hire 12-28-2010 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoNative (Post 843846)
Good or bad I hate to think how many more lives would have been lost throughout Asia and beyond had the US not got involved. No other country in the world at the time had the capability to stop the Japanese. Or those that possibly did were completely embroiled in battles in Europe. The Japanese were definitely not benevolent occupiers of the countries they invaded!

Had Japan not undertook WW2 Europeans might still be in charge of much of Asia and the Pacific.

If we are going to credit the US with consequences they didn't intend then lets be fair and credit the Japanese too.

termogard 12-28-2010 04:17 PM

of course
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery (Post 843847)
And this is of course all speculation.

Have you ever tried to back your brave statements by some valid sources?;)

WingsToDiscovery 12-28-2010 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by termogard (Post 843851)
Whoa! It was you, who used to ask about my historical knowledges here?!:D
What about Manchurian Strategic Offensive Operation?;)

I think he was referring to the actual war machine, not a campaign.

WingsToDiscovery 12-28-2010 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by termogard (Post 843853)
Have you ever tried to back your brave statements by some valid sources?;)

Can you?
I've never had to use "I believe" in my arguments so far, but you have. Because I post facts. :D

chryuop 12-28-2010 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMM (Post 843731)

WWII? Not started by Americans

Even pushers say "we sell drugs, we don't shoot it in their veins" LOL.
True you didn't shoot the gun first, but pushed the finger that pushed that trigger. Penalties to repay fro WWI were taken to a very extreem point and brought Germany to starvation...that added to the craziness of a dwarf with mustaches created the war.

There are many ways to start a war without starting it...you just have to read between the lines. To enter the war (because Germany was becoming too strong economically) USA used a nice trick that in history was recorded many times (even my country, Italy, used it to be attacked and get help by France in middle ages). Place all you army on the border till you get attacked (Pearl Harbor).
Iraq itself was a target till the gulf war. The embargo placed by US and UN was by far unnecessary. Many people, including kids, died because no medicine could have been sent.

War is money, period. USA is the one who has the more to lose or to gain being the big power and it is obvious it wants to play a leading role...that of course creates not a good opinion in other countries.

GoNative 12-28-2010 04:23 PM

Well at least Pilger is more respectable than the previous link you put up. Ever since his involvement as a war correspondent in Vietnam though he has been extremely scathing of nearly all US foreign policies (and I agree with many of his views) but his is only an opinion piece and he is a journalist. I don't trust everything they say ;)

If the National archives do have evidence of these overtures of peace does anyone have links to them? Would be interesting to get a translation to see exactly what they say. I don't overly trust the interpretations of a journalist who has been pretty anti US for most of his career.

GoNative 12-28-2010 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire (Post 843852)
Had Japan not undertook WW2 Europeans might still be in charge of much of Asia and the Pacific.

So Japan just liberated the poor Asians from their western imperialist oppressors?? LOL
I suppose they were just going to hand back the countries to the people once the threat of the westerners was completely wiped out?
Oh you really are too funny at times Ronin!

termogard 12-28-2010 04:27 PM

sure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery (Post 843855)
Can you?

I posted some sources. You may check above.:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery (Post 843855)
I've never had to use "I believe" in my arguments so far, but you have. Because I post facts. :D

You posted "facts" without sources? It is much worse than "I believe":D

Ronin4hire 12-28-2010 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoNative (Post 843860)
So Japan just liberated the poor Asians from their western imperialist oppressors?? LOL
I suppose they were just going to hand back the countries to the people once the threat of the westerners was completely wiped out?
Oh you really are too funny at times Ronin!

You edited the other part of my post you prick.

I clearly said that if we are going to credit the US with consequences they didn't intend then surely we must do the same with the Japanese.

GoNative 12-28-2010 04:34 PM

You prick? LOL

No sheep where you are Ronin? No wonder you get so agitated! Go home and get your rocks off, you'll be a much nicer person for it!!

Ronin4hire 12-28-2010 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoNative (Post 843859)
Well at least Pilger is more respectable than the previous link you put up. Ever since his involvement as a war correspondent in Vietnam though he has been extremely scathing of nearly all US foreign policies (and I agree with many of his views) but his is only an opinion piece and he is a journalist. I don't trust everything they say ;)

If the National archives do have evidence of these overtures of peace does anyone have links to them? Would be interesting to get a translation to see exactly what they say. I don't overly trust the interpretations of a journalist who has been pretty anti US for most of his career.

Just an opinion? He gives sources and facts to back up his point.

The archives seem to be accurate concerning the US records not to mention that other historians have stated clearly that this is so.

Like I said.. I've done a bit of research into the topic myself.

And Pilger isn't the only guy that claims this. Just the most respected. Though I suppose it's easy to dismiss him as having an agenda.

Ronin4hire 12-28-2010 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoNative (Post 843864)
You prick? LOL

No sheep where you are Ronin? No wonder you get so agitated! Go home and get your rocks off, you'll be a much nicer person for it!!

F*ck off.. I don't take kindly to people that purposefully twist what I say.

It's a sign that you don't know what you're talking about.

GoNative 12-28-2010 04:39 PM

Ah sheep deprivation for New Zealanders is a terrible thing to watch...I could send you a nice wool jumper to cuddle up to at night. That might help?

GoNative 12-28-2010 04:42 PM

The US didn't continue to occupy, murder and terrorise the people in the countries they liberated from Japanese. Your sheep deprived mind obviously glossed over this....

Ronin4hire 12-28-2010 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoNative (Post 843869)
The US didn't continue to occupy, murder and terrorise the people in the countries they liberated from Japanese.

No but they fought for a status quo that allowed the Europeans to continue to do this.

Even after WW2 the US didn't do anything about the French in Indochina or the Brits and Dutch in Indonesia, Malaysia. They handed it right back to them.

If the Japanese hadn't made such a dent in the European powers hold on Asia and the pacific then resistance movements in Vietnam (against the French), Malaysia and Indonesia which eventually lead to their liberation might not have been possible.

siokan 12-28-2010 05:02 PM


dogsbody70 12-28-2010 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by termogard (Post 843817)
Oh, really? Is that sentence represents all arguments you can add to discussion? :)

I have written on a previous thread about this subject.

siokan 12-28-2010 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manganimefan227 (Post 843648)
Does Japan still hold any grudge or hard feelings for America from the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings anywhere? (military,politics,youth) or have they completely forgaven us, (not forgetting). What do you think?

Because the war is not experienced, it doesn't understand.
Itis only sad.

RickOShay 12-28-2010 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by termogard (Post 843811)
You called my post about bombings of two japanese cities by US nuclear devices as "ignorance towards the events of WW2 ", huh?
Boy, go play your toy gundams or console games instead of desperate attempts to chat with adult persons.

I called you ignorant because I believe most people who are throughly educated do not even bother trying to equate compare Pearl Harbor and the Bombs, and then imply that the Japanese were the poor victims in all this, against the evil American Empire. Now it is clear to me you and I just do not agree about the purpose and necessity of the bombs. I have argued about this and researched it into the ground, its not worth it for me to get into it again right now, cuz I am sure no matter how solid my argument is it won't convince you of anything. Sorry, for assuming you are ignorant, but I hope you understand why I would concluded such a thing based off that silly comparison.

dogsbody70 12-28-2010 06:09 PM

I have just been watching a dvd about Japan's war in colour.


If you can get hold of it I recommend it.


I will not go into detail here but after the battle of Okinawa which was then used to use aircraft to firebomb the cities, it was awful to see those hundreds of incendiaries falling down in order to set fire to everything in its path.

Then also to see the Atom bombs dropped!!!!

The way the american tanks used FLAMES /GUNS from their tanks to reach all those who were hiding in caves-- amnong them many women and children. so much was set on fire from those awful flame throwers.

Knowing how many tunnels were created on Okinawa its dreadful to think how many japanese must have been burned alive

Oh surely we should learn from these awful happenings. All wars are dreadful and all too often its the innocent who suffer--not those who send armys out to do their work.

I doubt the Emperor realised the power that would be unleashed from the USA.

If he had been advised properly maybe he would have surrendered soon enough toprevent those A bombs being unleashed. The fire bombing should have been enough surely.


Of course for the Japanese-- surrender was supposed to be really unthinkable.

Ronin4hire 12-28-2010 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogsbody70 (Post 843897)
I doubt the Emperor realised the power that would be unleashed from the USA.

If he had been advised properly maybe he would have surrendered soon enough toprevent those A bombs being unleashed. The fire bombing should have been enough surely.


Of course for the Japanese-- surrender was supposed to be really unthinkable.

It wasn't unthinkable. The Japanese offered avenues to surrender prior to 1945. The Americans didn't take them up on it though.

Columbine 12-28-2010 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suki (Post 843815)

Taxi to the Dark Side

Tortures all the same.

No. I agree fully that torture is foul and I'm not condoning the use of it. I am simply against the comparison to the nazi regimes. Waterboarding and sleep deprivation is not yet in the same league as experimental vivisection on children to prove their genetic inferiority nor the whole-sale abduction of families and their subsequent execution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suki (Post 843815)
No! Let the US fix it! Let them invade the country with their troops, that'll surely make everything better ¬¬

Military intervention does not lead to conflict resolution. All the opposite.

I'm just pointing out your ab-dabs over America getting involved in foreign conflicts are rather hypocritical when you then start advocating precisely intervening in other countries conflicts. Including countries that currently aren't AT conflict. Nigeria and Thailand don't need American military intervention, but they need some western group of democrats marching in and telling them what to do for their own good just as little.

aannnd, I see this thread has degenerated swiftly into a slanging match of who 'knows' best and poor stereotypes. I'm out.

Mizza1011 12-28-2010 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire (Post 843687)
What Columbine said is accurate I think and more or less reflects my experiences.

lol.. I think I'm more angered by the events than the average Japanese person.

RIGHT! thats how i feel every time someone mentions it. i get angry!

JamboP26 12-28-2010 07:19 PM

While I understand why the US did it, & it did bring about the end of WWII, I severely dislike the action that brought about the death & suffering of thousands of innocent Japanese. The explosion does look good with Vinushka as a soundtrack though, especially Kyo's screaming at 4:30-something


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