Feelings Toward Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
 

Does Japan still hold any grudge or hard feelings for America from the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings anywhere? (military,politics,youth) or have they completely forgaven us, (not forgetting). What do you think?

No one will ever be able to forgive the US for that, or Iraq, or Vietnam, or Korea, etc.

Se meten en todo, no?

It's 'forgiven' not 'forgaven'.
Generally if you talk to the average person on the street, then no, there aren't many deep grievances.
Mostly because a lot of people now weren't even born at the time. Politically speaking, America has made it's apologies and worked towards amending it. The general consensus I experienced was that it was a terrible, terrible thing that shouldn't have happened, but that playing the blame game and harbouring unfocussed hatred towards America in general over it is pretty pointless. I got this sentiment from middle-aged people as well as younger people. In fact, the only time I came across any REAL anger about it was an encounter with a very drunk, very old man who cussed out my American friends in a bar. And you know what? The other elderly patrons there were quite genuinely apologetic about it. It was an incredibly rare occurrence, and from what we could gather, the man had lost an awful lot in Hiroshima. Perhaps they would treat older Americans differently, but most older people who broached the subject simply wanted to hear what our thoughts and views on it were as non-japanese, and they were surprisingly open to listen to views of Japan's errors, as much as those of the west.
As far as I'm concerned, you hear more anger and more generalized racism and more full-fledged comments of how it is totally 'unforgivable' in America and the west. I used to work with the elderly here in the UK. Many of them were still VERY anti-Germany and anti-asian, and were adamant that they should be allowed to be so because of their experience in the wars. Defensively so, I mean. I worked with the elderly in Japan too, and there was noticeably less belligerence about it. Perhaps I just worked with rather un-representative groups and my experience is unsual, but there it is for you.


The people who care very very deeply or who have personal experience of it might not be able to forgive things Hiroshima, but for most people, it's hardly a massive issue in their lives. Sure, the average person might say this or that country has done this or that bad thing and I don't agree with it, but the idea of going as far as 'forgiving' or 'not forgiving' probably doesn't even occur to them. They just don't feel that strongly either way about it.

Iraq, Vietnam etc aren't really the topic in hand here either, so I don't see the point in mentioning them.

What Columbine said is accurate I think and more or less reflects my experiences.

lol.. I think I'm more angered by the events than the average Japanese person.

I was just pointing out how the US always seems to be in the middle of all major human catastrophes. It's not only an opinion but a proven fact. Every country that has a war going on, the US's in it somehow. And strangely enough, American citizens seem to back up every move made by their army, like they truly believe they're doing a great job by being sent away from their homes to propagate peace and democracy. Like taking part in a war they have no business being in is the best way to make their ideals prevail.

The thing is, a lot has happened since Hiroshima and Nagasaki. A lot of wrong decisition were made back then by people from both sides. And they're all dead or soon to be, so in a way they've all paid for what they did. However, as of today, history is repeating itself. And ok, World War II was horrible and it should have never happened, but why are we not trying to change what's taking place now? Cause it's just as bad. If not worse.

So, has the world forgiven the United States for dropping an atomic bomb on civilians? Well, that was more than 60 years ago and nothing can be done about it. And the world was a crazy place at that time, I can understand crazy decisions being made under desperate situations. I'm not saying they should go unpunished because there was a reason behind their action, I am saying I can understand why it happened. The question isn't if the population of today (who can't even come close to imagine what it must've been like to live back then) has been able to forgive the US for the massacre in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the question is, why are they still sending people out to kill? Really. Over one million people have died in Iraq. Why is it any different from the Nazis killing the Jews? Everyone agrees that what the Nazis did was wrong, then why are we not stopping the killing in Iraq? I fail to see how it's any different. I can forgive the US for what they did in WWII cause it made sense at that time, but I cannot begin to understand why the fuck they're still fucking things up in Iraq. Leave them alone. Get back to your country. Let them have a civil war and have it their way. Mind your own business. Don't start a war that has no possible justification.

So what I'm saying is, let's worry about Uganda and Somalia and Pakistan and Colombia and Ethiopia and Nigeria and Algeria and Iran and Thailand and Yemen and Iraq. Let's try to do something about ongoing wars, because whatever happened happened, we can't change that, but there is something we can do about what's taking place now. So let's not blame the US for dropping a bomb half a century ago, instead let's make sure they never do that again. And that starts by putting an end to Iraq war. Hope this answers your question as to why I mentioned Vietnam, Korea and Iraq. It's not out of context, it has everything to do with this topic.


EDIT: And before someone mentions it, I know the Iraq war was supposed to end in August this year. Well, I'd like to see about that. It is still an ongoing conflict, so it applies.

In my 7 years here I've never had a Japanese person ever even mention the war. Mentioned it a few times myself but at least among younger people I know (aged 20-40) they seem to have little knowledge or interest about it. Hokkaido of course is a long way from the what happened down south.

In Australia among the elderly there's still a reasonable amount of resentment towards the Japanese. Few of them would feel much empathy for the those affected by the atomic bombs considering the horrendous amounts of people who suffered and were killed by the Japanese as they invaded most of the countries of eastern and south eastern Asia. I personally feel considering the options at the time and the terrible toll the war had already taken that the use of atomic weapons was entirely justifiable and if anyone should be seeking forgiveness it's the Japanese not the Americans.

justification
 

Justifiable, you said?!:eek: There is a difference between attacking Pearl-Harbour ( a Naval base) and dropping of armed nuclear devices on cities, filled by civilians.

Come on. this is just more run-of-the-mill America bashing. That's so 2007 on JF.

But let's look at some of the greatest catastrophes in human history.

The Great Fire of London in 1666?

The Bhola Hurricane of 1970?

The 1960 Chile Earthquake?

The Indian Ocean Tsunami of 2004?

Sorry, Americans may have been killed in these events, but Americans didn't cause them.

Are you talking about war?

WWI? Not started by Americans

WWII? Not started by Americans

The Korean War? Not started by Americans

Vietnam? Not started by Americans

So really, enough is enough. It is an opinion and a misguided one.


You clearly know NOTHING about what American people think and how they feel about being in the Middle East right now.

My experience of this is small but perhaps very relevant.

Whilst in Hiroshima peace gardens, an elderly Japanese man approached us and in broken English asked if we were American, with a stern look on his face. Before we had much chance to answer he said he did not like Americans and they should not be in Hiroshima Peace Gardens.

We replied that we were British and all of a sudden he was our best friend and talked at us in a mixture of Japanese and English for the next part of an hour and nice as it was it was very hard to leave when we had other things to see.

He kept repeating that he was so glad we were not American, and did we know what the Americans had done to Hiroshima.


To me it always confused me, I am not the best at history but surely us British are at least partly responsible for the bombings too?

And how many countries did Japan invade and how many civillians did they kill on their little crusade through Asia? America (and other allied nations) were the saviour of these countries and their peoples. A bit more went on than just an attack on a naval base and the subsequent dropping of nuclear devices on Japanese cities. 10's of millions of lives were lost as a direct result of the Japanese invasion of Asia. People sometimes seem to forget that Japan was the aggressor not the US who helped liberate most of the countries occupied by the brutal Japanese forces.
I believe there is a very good case that the atomic bombs helped end the war considerably earlier than it would have otherwise and saved many more lives (both allied and Japanese) from a protracted war on Japanese soil than died as a result of the bombings.

While I don't necessarily fully agree with GoNative's opinion (there's far too much to this to try and debate over a forum), I will at least supplement his input by concurring that many people have a very ignorant idea of what actually happened in the east aside from what parts involved the Americans and western allies. Subjects like the Nanking Massacre get shoved to the side in favor of taking a much easier "anti-American" approach to the war.

Your ignorance towards the events of WW2 and particularly of those leading up to the dropping of the bombs is made more than clear by this statement. I suggest you try and gain some understanding before jumping on the modern-day bash America bandwagon. In short you don't know what you are talking about, so stop talking.

The Nanking massacre is only one of thousands of equally appalling events that the Japanese were responsible for. You're right Wings most people, especially the little crowd of weaboos out there, have no idea whatsoever what went on during the Japanese invasion and occupation of Asia. No idea how many people they killed and the incredible suffering they created for those they didn't.
I'm not trying to make out the atomic bombs weren't horrific. Of course they were. But I think it's very hard to say that the bombs were unjustifiable. The allied powers had already lost millions of men in the war in Europe and Asia. The prospect of a protracted war up through onto the Japanese mainland would have been somewhat horrifying and incredibly bloody. Hard to say what any of us would have decided to do when offered a possible solution that would save 100's of thousands of lives of the soldiers we were responsible for.
The fact that a second bomb needed to be dropped says more to me about the ridiculous leadership the Japanese people had to endure during that dark period than anything about how terrible the Americans were.

The band Dir En Grey used scenes from the Hiroshima bombings in their video for Vinushka (although a majority of the video is censored). I frightening thing is, it works. The group 'direngreyvideos' also made a fan-vid for Sa Bir, using bits from Vinushka & other uncensored clips, showing injuries. I post links to the vids:

YouTube - Vinushka PV HD

YouTube - Sa Bir HD

GN I think you have said it all really. There is lots of information out there for those who genuinely wish to learn about the Pacific War.

I am sure we have already had a thread on this issue before.

The world is in a much fairer, more stable and more co-operative state NOW than it was during WW2. The arguable horrors of modern warfare also don't really correspond with the undeniable atrocities of the two great wars. You're trying to turn this thread into a generalized scald at America, and if you can't see that, you need to take a step back.

and this just basically sums up exactly why you need to take a step back from this argument and reconsider your entirely thoughtless words. Godwin's Law. Over a million people may have died in Iraq, but that death toll is not the sole responsibility of the American army. They are NOT herding innocent civilians to death camps with the view to commit genocide. You undermine the incredible suffering of the victims of the holocaust with your gauche comparisons.

[/quote] I can forgive the US for what they did in WWII cause it made sense at that time, but I cannot begin to understand why the-[/quote]

Watch your language.

And now your argument is just ridiculous. At least two of those countries aren't AT war, and any unrest there is internal and entirely unrelated to America. And LOL, according to your argument, the rest of the world shouldn't interfere anyway. Let them get on with it!

While there are the overly patriotic types out there who feel like you say, most families that have loved ones in the military support THEM, the soldiers out there in a foreign land dying for a cause they may not believe in. Since the military these days is a voluntary service, and people join up for a variety of reasons, it is ultimately they who give up their lives for the politics of the nation. Everywhere you see signs stating "WE SUPPORT OUR TROOPS" because they are the ones on the front lines. If you poll people out there, quite a few would say the conflicts we Americans get involved with are not our concern. And most people don't support the actions of the military command, but they do support the poor folks out there getting shot at.

Unfortunately, many people join the military forces because it is a way to escape poverty and bad economic times.

While there are many points I do agree with you, Suki, this is one that I must point out because people outside the United States may not be able to differentiate this. I'm not saying you are one of them, I'm just sayin.... :)

*Sigh* Here we go again. (Sorry.. but this topic always seems to raise it's head).

The dropping of the second bomb or even the first bomb wasn't needed. Historians that specialize in the subject point to a president eager to test the bomb on a civilian population. Who even defied his own intelligence agencies that claimed the Japanese were on the verge of surrender and that there was internal conflict in the government as early as 1944 as well as numerous attempts to surrender.

Also comparing the dropping of the bombs to Japanese atrocities is going by the flawed logic that 2 wrongs make a right.

The logical conclusion is that the Japanese atrocities were appalling AND the dropping of the atomic bombs (and the firebombings that preceded them which killed more civilians) were appalling.

Was Hiroshima Necessary?

I more or less see your point of view over GoNative's but this is what I disagree with. It's not a "2 wrongs don't make a right" scenario. It's just acknowledging that more than just the atomic bombings happened in the east. Most people probably couldn't tell you Japan's agenda (if this thread is any indication) outside of Pearl Harbor and the A bombs. America somehow ends up getting guilted into being the bad guys, not because the atomic bombs, but because of people's lack of knowledge on the subject. Nanking is just one of the instances where you can step back and say "wow, the was f^&&$d up." But because it had no direct result (such as ending a war), it just gets glossed over and threads like these are made instead, calling the Americans into question.

My father now has partial paralysis in his neck and is now stuck working an office job with disability at age 43 as a result of an engagement while serving in the current conflict in Iraq. You honestly think we all support the war? While I harbor no ill will towards anyone in the Middle East, it's not like the majority of us actually support the war itself. We're supporting our families who are told they have to go. You really are a fool.

My god this is the best you can do? This organisation was founded by an ex member of the British National Front (a white supremecy group) and the head of the now defunct Liberty Front which was an anti semitic organisation. They have been involved in denial of the holocaust in Europe and are not considered to uphold any of the established methods for mainstream historical research.
I really suggest you you check your sources a little better for information. :rolleyes:

Or just do what so many do these days and find anything off the net (because you can easily find just about anything) to support your views. It's easy to post anything you want on the internet when you don't have to go through any peer review or have to go through any of the normal checks of your methodology to be published in a credible journal.

ignorance
 

You called my post about bombings of two japanese cities by US nuclear devices as "ignorance towards the events of WW2 ", huh?
Boy, go play your toy gundams or console games instead of desperate attempts to chat with adult persons.


[Sigh} Yes, Japan was the aggressor. Yes, japanese forces occupied many asian countries. But it can not justify nuclear bombings of japanese civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Plain and simple.


Unfortunately, history doesn't know such terms as "if", "could", "would", "should".

In your opinion.

And you know this because of your vast historical knowledge and qualifications? :rolleyes:

Please study more-- You clearly do not have a clue what you are talking about.

Ok, I should have said "non-environmental catastrophes caused by humans". That's what I meant.

And yes, the US is always involved in wars that don't concern them. Look up a timeline of US military operations carried out in the last 30 years.

Now? It's taken what, ten years? George Bush even got reelected for God's sake, that alone speaks for itself.

Taxi to the Dark Side

Tortures all the same.

No! Let the US fix it! Let them invade the country with their troops, that'll surely make everything better ¬¬

Military intervention does not lead to conflict resolution. All the opposite.

opinions
 

I am not alone.

quote :

A number of notable individuals and organizations have criticized the bombings, many of them characterizing them as war crimes, crimes against humanity, and/or state terrorism. Two early critics of the bombings were Albert Einstein and Leo Szilard, who had together spurred the first bomb research in 1939 with a jointly written letter to President Roosevelt. Szilard, who had gone on to play a major role in the Manhattan Project, argued:

"Let me say only this much to the moral issue involved: Suppose Germany had developed two bombs before we had any bombs. And suppose Germany had dropped one bomb, say, on Rochester and the other on Buffalo, and then having run out of bombs she would have lost the war. Can anyone doubt that we would then have defined the dropping of atomic bombs on cities as a war crime, and that we would have sentenced the Germans who were guilty of this crime to death at Nuremberg and hanged them?"[50]

Wiki



Yep. If you need further confirmation, ask any historian.

clue
 

Oh, really? Is that sentence represents all arguments you can add to discussion? :)

Its a bit like the Brits who were drawn into the IRAQ conflict after 9/11.
There were huge protest marches here against us getting involved but Blair was hanging onto Bush's coat tails.

It sems to me that ever since 9/11 that is when the war on terrorists began.

I still do not Know why We are even in Afghanistan?


Soldiers are trained to fight-- its never the Presidents or Prime Ministers that fight-- they just like to send Our men as fodder.


during ww2 conscientious objectors were either imprisoned or sent to work in the MINES etc.

You'll also find this (since you've use Wiki as well):

"Of the total deaths in World War II approximately 85 percent—mostly Soviet and Chinese—were on the Allied side and 15 percent on the Axis side. Many of these deaths were caused by war crimes committed by German and Japanese forces in occupied territories...Roughly 7.5 million civilians died in China under Japanese occupation..."

"The most well-known Japanese atrocity was the Nanking Massacre, in which several hundred thousand Chinese civilians were raped and murdered.
Between 3 million to more than 10 million civilians, mostly Chinese, were killed by the Japanese occupation forces. Mitsuyoshi Himeta reported 2.7 million casualties occurred during the Sankō Sakusen. General Yasuji Okamura implemented the policy in Heipei and Shantung.
The Axis forces employed limited biological and chemical weapons. The Italians used mustard gas during their conquest of Abyssinia,while the Imperial Japanese Army used a variety of such weapons during their invasion and occupation of China and in early conflicts against the Soviets. Both the Germans and Japanese tested such weapons against civilians and, in some cases, on prisoners of war."

Along with an appropriate picture of Chinese civilians being buried alive on the webpage.

Yes you're not alone and neither am I in my opinion. There's no absolute right or wrong, there's only opinions. I really don't think you have any appreciation of the death toll and suffering caused by the Japanese during their occupation of other countries though. And I doubt many of us here have any appreciation of what is was like near the end of the war after so many lives had been lost (except maybe dogsbody ;) ). I can see how people could come to justify using such weapons near the end of a war that had already cost so many lives. If you had it in your power to use a weapon that would cripple and terrify your enemy into surrender without having to risk the lives of your own soldiers, considering how many you had already lost, can you really say you wouldn't have considered using it? A horrific decision to make but one ultimately I believe was justified considering the circumstances.

massacre
 

Thank you for the info, but I know about Nanking Massacre. So, what's your point?
Dropping nuclear devices on japanese civilians is OK in response to Nanking Massacre, right?

Japanese civilian deaths as a result of atomic bombs: ~Few hundred thousand

Chinese civilian murder/rape : ~7.5 million

Wings if you look at the deaths at the hands of the Japanese throughout all of Asia the numbers soar into much bigger figures than just those in China.
Japan made it all the way down to Papua New Guinea and launched air raids on northern Australia. China was just the beginning...

ultimate weapon
 

Good question. Some historians wrote that atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was also a clear demonstration of American military Power to Soviet side. Americans wished to cripple and terrify Moscow leadership. Later they developed Dropshot plan. When you have an Ultimate Weapon, so many reasons to run it against other parts of world.......

I'm just using the instance of China alone. As I've stated numerous times, I'm quite neutral on the subject, but I just don't know how people can say a flash of light and a few hundred thousand deaths (and of course radiation) is worse than rape, murder, being buried alive, and everything else that happened a ballpark figure of around 10 million.

civilian deaths
 

Eye for an Eye, in other words.......nice logic !:)

Not an eye for an eye, just a comparison of facts. Let's just disregard the other millions of civilians who died so we can just blame the US for one incident, right? :)

Actually the logic that you appear to totally miss is that there was already a massive death toll due to Japans aggression in the region. The US decided to take decisive action to end the war quickly with as few allied casualties as possible by using what is undoubtedly the most terrible weapon of mass destruction ever used. Was it morally the right thing to do? Probably not but wars are rarely all that moral. Justifiable to reduce more loss of life of your own people and those of your allies? I believe so.

Dropping the bombs wasn't an eye for an eye, it wasn't retrubution. It was done to reduce the loss of allied lives and force the surrender of an aggressor who had caused millions of deaths in the region. And in that the bombs were undoubetdly very effective.

death
 

Not worse. The same. Crimes against humanity.