Commercialization of Japan
 

I was reading another thread and Ryuurui said something that made me ponder on it;

I'm taking this quote out of context, so I'm starting a separate thread on the topic, and I'm not pretending to assume what Ryuurui meant by it.

What is your take on the commercialization of Japan?

I have met over 500 Japanese people in the last year alone, I always ask them what their hobbies/passtimes/jobs are and what their families are like.

There's a wealth of knowledge I've learned from it, but it's obviously a statistically biased perspective due to the context in which I meet them, they are inquiring about learning English. Please keep in mind, though, that this is an enormous demographic in Japan and does in fact reflect a huge part of it's society.

To me, based on what I've seen first hand, Japanese people seem to be most concerned with keeping the peace and shopping.

Oh and I don't care if this thread veers off topic. ;)

I don't understand what you mean by "the commercialization of Japan".

perhaps I should have been more clear on that point, thanks

well commercialization means something is used for profit,
it generally infers that it's at the expense of quality

when used in context with a country I presume for it to infer that it's at the expense of culture, or more popularly "it's roots"

in Japan's case, as it got more and more wealthy, it's people got less interested in it's traditions and cultures

The context I took ryuurui's quote from was how young people may not understand the virtue of calligraphy in the same way they might have in the past, presumably due to said commercialization

To me commercialization has a neutral meaning, as it is entering something into the marketplace. So when you say "commercialization of Japan" I am thinking of Japan being commercialized, and entered into [XYZ] marketplace.

But I accept your definition in the context, although the phrasing is confusing. It isn't "Japan" that is being "commercialized" but the market of Japan is flooded with distractions due to money.

I would take an alternative view, in that I am amazed at how much of Japan's culture is still embraced by the culture, young and old. We can say "Young people aren't as interested in calligraphy as they should be."

Yet, there are calligraphy classes and clubs in practically, if not actually, in all high schools. Kendo clubs, traditional flower arranging, tea ceremony classes... Not only is there nothing as historical or traditional to compare these to as, say, my American culture, but there is no outlet to them. Thousands upon thousands of Japanese school children practice calligraphy every single day. Thousands upon thousands practice kendo, karate, jiujitsu, and other traditional forms of martial arts. How many American school children learn how to churn butter or milk a cow or make a horseshoe?

How often in the US do young people wear "traditional dress"? Chances are, never.

However in Japan not only do they wear yukata to festivals and kimono on Coming of Age day and wedding ceremonies... these traditional clothes are still considered very cool.

I really have a hard time seeing Japan as an example of a country where tradition and culture is dying. If anything it is a country where, amazingly, progress is made, but not at the expense of tradition.

It's true that it's hard to parallel Japan to North American culture, since we hardly have a history or culture to keep, if anything commerce is our culture lol.

Coming to Japan one of the things I felt was amazing was that I often saw women in Kimono or old temples and shrines scattered throughout a metropolis.
I really felt that old and new came together, Korea is quite similar in that regard actually, at least it was when I lived there.

These days, though, I feel a bit differently about it.
Perhaps instead of commercialization I should have said materialism.

The vast majority of people I meet shamelessly admit to their hobbies being shopping and talking with friends in cafes, and perhaps one or two other less popular activities.
I had a student last month who, not so coincidentally, does calligraphy in her free time. When she told me that, my reaction wasn't "yeah that's normal" it was more of a surprised reaction of "oh really? That's great! So few people are into these things now a days!" and she may or may not have agreed with me honestly, but she agreed none the less.

The concept of "at what cost" is common among businessmen here, who think life was better before. Granted they may not mean that when they realize it means no highspeed internet and smartphones to watch porn on in the train, but the notion still floats around that Japan's success was at a cost of it's culture.

One example, elderly people are increasingly living apart from their families, when up until even very recently it was commonplace to share a house with 3 generations.

Would Christmas in Japan qualify as part of this phenomenon? The only two Christmases in was in Japan were up in northern Tohoku and both times I actually flew missions on those days (24th and 25th). In rural Tohoku I didn't get to see much there. But what I've seen in photos and people's blogs, the whole Christmas season in Japan is entirely blown out of proportion with commercialism. I do understand the whole religious aspect may be missing there, but "importing" a holiday celebration for its commercialism has to rank pretty high on the list of commercial 'oddities' this country has.

in my opinion


Christmas never had a strong cultural/religious meaning in Japan to begin with.

I imagine that part of why it was "imported" was due to commercialism, but I think a larger part of it was due to a fascination with the west, more specifically America, which persists to this day.


I can't really think of any Japanese holidays that used to have meaning but are now just shopping days.
But
There are tonnes of holidays in Japan and most people just consider them days off, and if you ask them why that day is a holiday, they won't know most of the time.
A lot of those days I don't feel were ever important.

Golden week is famous in Japan, but try asking people here what holidays make up the days off in golden week and you'll be surprised how few know!

Yeah, but that's not only in Japan. People don't know why they have a day off, just that they know they have a day off. That happens here as well with some federal holidays.

yeah I think a lot of these holidays were introduced to just give people 3 day weekends so they would spend some of the money they're saving up all the time, stimulate the economy and all

In Canada I always knew why I had days off, I don't think I was special in that respect either.

As you stated in the OP, your research methods may not be the most scientific, and I do not fault you on that. You are using the means you have.

I would agree that a majority of Japanese will give canned answers to "what are your hobbies?" when asked. Popular answers are "sleeping," "shopping," "video games," "talking with friends," "listening to music", etc.

However that doesn't mean these are their actual hobbies. I find many Japanese people would rather give a canned answer than the "real" answer, as there is less threat of a negative (or even neutral or surprised positive) reaction.

Again, to give an alternative perspective, I would say that commercially, Japan is the most hobby-centric society I have ever seen. How else can specialty stores like the ones that Miss Misa just posted on her thread not only stay in business, but thrive?

Whether it be niche fashion, comics, artwork, model trains, robotics, make-up, temple-hopping, you name it, Japan has a subculture of talented and intelligent people who are followed by dozens if not hundreds if not thousands to strive to reach their level.

Go to any bookstore and see the massive variety of magazines on the shelves. There must be 10 times as many magazine titles published monthly in Japan as there are in the US, with half the population. How could this industry have lasted this long if peoples hobbies REALLY are "chatting with friends" and "going shopping"?

The reality is that Japanese aren't as forthcoming with their hobbies to people that aren't very close, or that don't share the same interest. Anyone who is interested in something you are not is considered odd, so it is easier to say "listening to music" than it is to say "practicing gothic-lolita make-up" or "taking photographs of shinkansen" (which is a beautiful subculture on its own... actually fueled by JR partially by having different trains that go only on certain routes).

I made a couple buddies at my most local shot bar when I lived in Hyogo. At first I just knew these guys as hard workers who got up in the morning, went to work, came home, had a few beers, and repeat the next day. One made desserts at a bakery, and the other was a salaryman at a plastics company. The bartender was (and is) a talkative guy, so it wasn't long before I learned of his hobby (interest, obsession) with American cowboy shows of the 50s and 60s. He could rattle of the names of actors from Rawhide, Gunsmoke, The Rifleman and shows I had never heard of. However, it took many months before I learned that the dessert man was a hardcore foreign film fan, and the plastics man was really into everything French... food, wine, culture, movies, language, etc.

So my point would be, just because people are not forthcoming with their actual hobbies or interests doesn't mean they don't have them. I think the sheer magnitude of niche industries is a testament to that.

Calligraphy is a spiritual art. To understand it, one needs to drop the pace of life, reflect on things, and forget the rush. Today, life is led at light speed with no (or very little) regard for not only other people, but also ourselves. Social interactions are down to twitter and 140 characters maximum, keitai's, or garbage (like TV, which is another way of passive existence). How people who live easy lives can relate to something that is far beyond every-day perception. Even in the calligraphy world majority of old people do not understand this art at all. I bet 80% do not get it, they just do it as they have nothing else to do. How many of them reach 師範 and stops studying, where 師範 is where it all just begins. Their knowledge of　書 is also superficial, and often times I find myself explaining virtually basic terms. So it is more of a "sunday" hobby for many, which is better than doing nothing at all, or drinking in 居酒屋, don't get me wrong.

I give you an example. I was consulting text of my calligraphy terms dictionary with my teacher, and he told me openly, that those terms I am talking about are not known to many of the calligraphy instructors in Japan. It simply goes too deep. What he said made me think, and scared me a bit, too. I realised how lucky i am to find a teacher that actually is in love with calligraphy and studies it diligently.

That is the angle i was coming from.

MMM - wanna bet that most of the reading in Japan is done on trains or while waiting on the first train after a night of 残業 at the locval convinience store? Japanese don't have the same hobbies? I am not so sure man, it is a society of followers, they follow the group and any deviation is saught as odd. You might be right though, that those who have "odd" hobbies,, do not talk about it as they are afraid that they will be cast away.

Anyway, this is a global issue, not just in Japan.

Yes, much reading is done on trains or in conbinis or bookstores.

But at least people in Japan still read. It is one of the most well-read societies in the world.

Every generation laments the actions of generation younger.

I find this overwrought generalization that Japan is a "society of followers" a little played out and confusing to those that don't really know what it means. Deviation may be seen as odd, but it doesn't mean deviation doesn't happen. That was my point of the last post. Just because I don't tell you what my true interests are, doesn't mean I don't have them.

I think it is a bit like sexual fantasies and the west. Most people in the US do not casually discuss their sexual fantasies or fetishes, even with close friends. It's a bit like hobbies in Japan. Everyone has them, but they aren't discussed openly.

I don't think it is necessarily a fear of being cast away, as much as a fear of bringing too much attention to oneself.

I knew a high school girl when I was teaching in Japan that had a fascination with Australia. She was one of the hardest working students of English I knew, so I made helping her get to Australia for a study abroad a personal goal of mine. We were able to get it done, and she spent a semester in Sydney. The funny thing was, many of her classmates didn't know she was going until she was gone. She didn't want them to know... and I couldn't understand why. Now I think I understand a little better.

Very interesting observation. It is unfortunate that someone who is an avid hobbyist may not meet another right away simply because they are not as forthcoming with their predilections. Sounds like it would be somewhat difficult to find people who share your same interest if you're just there visiting, like me, for example.

Thankfully you are visiting in 2011, and not 1991. The Internet makes it much easier to find people interested in the exact same things you are.

You do have a major valid point there.

I know what you mean. Well, in Europe we don;t have issues with discussing sexual fantasies and what have ya, but i noticed that (thorugh Americans that i have met) that Americans care too much about what others say about them. Or maybe it's me, as i reallly dont give a damn. Though i get what you meant by that.

The shoolgirl bit reminded me about something interesting I came accross when I was writing a book about Japan, about kids at grammar school learning foreign languages. If one is fluent then others will not envy him, as it would happen in western part of the world, but will treat him as a weirdo. I still strongly belive that this is going deep itto Japanese tendency to isolation, group-based interactions, and individualism being a subject taboo　(which consequently leads to serious complexes).

Well-read as in they read a lot? But are those books any good? Remember that they need to read as if they dont they will forget how to very quick.

You're entirely right that I didn't do much probing beyond the canned answers.
The truth is very likely to lie beyond that and show many more interesting and very likely culturally-related hobbies and interests.

Conversely, the canned answers which are chosen do expose a certain aspect of the culture, true or not.

I like the shot-bar story, and I've also had several experiences when getting to know people better that they divulge more about themselves.

@Ryuurui, you're entirely right that it's not a problem specific to Japan.

To me commercialism is about getting people to buy stuff they don't really need. It's all about getting you to buy stuff you want rather than need (and creating that want through advertising and marketing). Like no one needs to spend 100's of thousands of dollars on a car but millions of people around the world want to have such cars (for whatever reason). This to me is what commercialism is all about. With this definition I didn't find Japan to be overly commericialised. Most people I knew (even if they were quite rich) lived pretty simple lifestyles without being ostentatious with their wealth.

That said though in the area I lived if the Japanese got into something they generally didn't do it by halves. If it was camping they'd turn up to camping sites better equipped than just about any campers I've ever seen in Aus. I mean they seriously took camping to a new level. Same with hiking. Even if they were just heading out for a few hours walk they'd be kitted out almost as well as I've seen people heading out on extended expeditions! They would have all the latest gadgets and gear.

I think that`s pretty much true everywhere in Japan.
It`s part of the fun, I think. Gathering the perfect "set" for something is half the fun and adventure. People *like* to spend money, but once you`re in the work force there is a LOT of pressure to save it for things in the future - house, car, children`s education, etc. Finding something with "equipment" is an excuse to spend money as it isn`t frivolous. :D

It`s also not just with camping, hiking, or outdoor activities. Starting a new hobby of any sort is a great time to gather all the "equipment" you need. It`s something fun in itself.

I think this hobby-talk is interesting. I have talked to quite a few Japanese people who were very willing to share their hobbies with me fairly quickly. Perhaps it has to do with me being a foreigner, but I don't know.

I mean, I met a drunk guy on the last train one night who told me of his love of western movies. He was also extremely knowledgeable about different actors and movies and what not. I met a friend's co-worker who told me of his SUPER expensive car that he went in on with a couple of friends. I have a few friends that are unashamed of owning fishing rods and fishing equipment that costs way more than you could imagine... which is all geared towards catching just one type of fish. I met some of my best friends through having similar, slightly outlandish hobbies.

But sometimes I feel as though there is a guilt factor for having hobbies. Like, shouldn't you be at work during you entire waking life? I mean, I know people who only sometimes have the chance to take a bath with their kids before they go to bed and start the whole day over again. That includes most weekends and holidays. Where does a hobby fit in in those peoples' lives?

I think this kind of thinking is becoming a bit outdated. It was one thing when people worked 80 hours a week and were making a lot of money, but that kind of work ethic is much less attractive when one is paid less and concepts like lifetime employment start disappearing.

I see what you're saying, but on the contrary I think that style of thinking has resurfaced or has just kept on keeping on (perhaps it's just in my general area?). I often hear the "it's a recession" excuse for that style of working. The thinking goes like this: yea, the pay is terrible and the hours are outrageous, but at least I have a job.

The result is this: People "work" 8 hours a day for 5 days a week. That's on paper and in hiring advertisements. In reality people work on weekends and stay after work for at least a few hours of unpaid over time every day. Even if over time is paid, it's not like time and half (or a greater amount of pay than the usual hourly rate), it's a percentage of the regular hourly rate.

I'm sure you know all about how that works MMM... I'm just saying that while that kind of overworking is "outdated", it still seems to be carried out by quite a few people I know.

The whole lifetime employment thing disappearing is something I feel like I've read in articles dating back to the early/mid nineties. I get what you're saying though... and I do feel like there is definitely an age group that feels very strongly that way. Unfortunately however, I feel like some of the younger workers fall into the "I'm just happy to have a job" category. I also hear the "during the war"... type of thinking.

At any rate, I'd like to see that kind of overworking truly become outdated and a thing of the past. You could literally take one person's shift and split it between two people and still have both of them come close to 40 hours a week (each).

I think some of it has to do with shady employers as well. My wife got offered a "part-time" job, which had her working 9 hours a day 5 days a week with days off being spread out throughout the week (with probably an average of less than one day off a week). By "part-time", I think the place meant, "we'll strip you of any full-timer benefits and let you work full time." (which in case of that particular company full time benefits is bonuses... they don't have real over time pay or maternity leave or paid days off or anything like that). It's a win-win situation for the employer.

So while on paper and in statistics everything looks hunky-dory, the reality is some people just don't have time to have a life. I personally wouldn't want "life-time employment" in that kind of situation anyways. Anyways, MMM I'm sure you've heard this kind of thing and seen it first person a lot... but I'm just saying I don't think it's a thing of the past. It's rather unfortunate really.

I didn't say people didn't work the outrageous hours, I just meant the thinking that their lives should revolve around work and they shouldn't have a hobby is outdated. They certainly work the hours, but it seems like people are more vocal about complaining about it than they were 20 years ago.

I can confirm that, complaining about work hours is certainly a common subject matter here.
Wishing there were more free time to do whatever hobby or see kids or just relax, very common.