What is your opinion of the foreigner who leave Japan straight after the tsunami?

[mikeyzan]

Originally Posted by acjama

Didn't find any trace of the rumour (it was one article among thousands about the subject) anymore, so we might as well let that one go.

But anyway, many Japanese "abandoned their posts" just like flyjins. Why is that not an issue? It seems extremely unlikely that foreigners could cripple any functionality in Japan by simply going away. Yeah, ok, factories with high number of unskilled foreign labour, yes, I grant that. But majority of Japanese companies do not have significant levels of foreign workers, and rarely in any critical position.

where is the source japanese flee ?

i only seen reports and interview foreigner fleeing the country

[termogard]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

My personal terrible experience was some really awful bullying at their hands because when the leader pulled the "We do NOT get in onsen outside of Japan - there is NO WAY we are getting in there naked. It is just common sense for non-Japanese. We want private baths in a private room! It is our religious and cultural right!" card, I wasn`t about to let her ruin my chance to get in a rotenburo for the first time... So I rolled my eyes and went to enjoy the onsen anyway.
Suddenly, it wasn`t "common sense that any non-Japanese would agree with". My choice not to go along with them made them look bad. My actually *wanting* to get in and telling the teachers I thought it was a wonderful chance was even worse for them. Why was *I* willing to do something they had thrown such fits about being "common sense" for foreigners, even though I was a foreigner too? Maybe they should try some of the cultural stuff too for once. Maybe, just maybe, all those "No foreigners would ever do this!" excuses in the past were exaggerations...

This apparently made the leader girl VERY mad. They basically stormed my room that night and did all sorts of crap to me. Somewhere on here there is another post about it.

I have a very depressed memory of sitting staring out over Nagasaki from the hotel window and just crying through the night.

Depressed memory, you said? Why? Time is a best judge ever. They were a typical brainless herd under brainless shepherd while you never were. You decided no to be a part of a herd and finally you won. Even after infamous attack of those idiots you did not join them, right?
You wrote that after recent disaster you had enough common sense and responsibility to stay at work while the very same kind of people escaped Japan like a scared herd of rats from sinking ship. Unlike you, they lost their faces for japanese people and all those "demands" from their side merely looks out like a cheap monkey grimacing. You maybe got a lot of work but also you got a true respect from locals.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by acjama

But anyway, many Japanese "abandoned their posts" just like flyjins. Why is that not an issue?

Location, for one.
While there were plenty of Japanese leaving the areas that were actually hit, and a number leaving possibly iffy areas like Tokyo and north of it... You didn't have Japanese giving no notice and flying out of Osaka and Fukuoka. Even the most panicked had enough sense to know that places that far away would NOT suffer even in the absolute worst scenario. They would have been laughed at.
But the attitude with the foreigners leaving (the ones I take issue with, not students, etc) was either that the entire country was unsafe, or that even if they knew it was safe where they were everyone else was leaving so it was a great time to leave.

Either way though, I have yet to hear any stories of Japanese abandoning their responsibilities without giving any sort of notice at all... Unless, well, their workplace was destroyed and the people to report to dead or missing.

It seems extremely unlikely that foreigners could cripple any functionality in Japan by simply going away. Yeah, ok, factories with high number of unskilled foreign labour, yes, I grant that. But majority of Japanese companies do not have significant levels of foreign workers, and rarely in any critical position.

So, if the position isn't going to have a crippling effect on the country, you should be able to just walk away without even giving notice because it is the "thing to do" at the moment?
Remember, I am not talking about people in areas that were actually affected.

But I do think you are forgetting some important things. For those skilled positions, in order to get a visa you have to be considered vital and difficult to be replaced by a native Japanese worker. J to E translation is a field where it makes quite a difference. My personal direct experience was with companies who lost all means to deal with foreign partners and customers at a time when those partners and customers were concerned and trying to get information. Crippling on a national level it wasn't, but I assure you it was crippling for the companies.

English teachers are easy to replace. Technical translators who have been working for a year on a confidential project as the main route of communication between a company in Japan and a company in Israel are not. Especially not when they just disappear with most of the work they have done so far.

Most of the people who had the money to just run to the airport abandoning everything and hop on a plane home were in high paying skilled positions.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by termogard

Depressed memory, you said? Why? Time is a best judge ever. They were a typical brainless herd under brainless shepherd while you never were. You decided no to be a part of a herd and finally you won. Even after infamous attack of those idiots you did not join them, right?

That isn't the point. No matter what the reasons were, and my thoughts about them... Having half my stuff ruined and being kicked as I rolled up in a ball is not something I am going to look back fondly upon.
I certainly wasn't unhappy about not being one of them - I wasn't looking for friendship from them in the first place - but being outright attacked is depressing.

You wrote that after recent disaster you had enough common sense and responsibility to stay at work while the very same kind of people escaped Japan like a scared herd of rats from sinking ship. Unlike you, they lost their faces for japanese people and all those "demands" from their side merely looks out like a cheap monkey grimacing. You maybe got a lot of work but also you got a true respect from locals.

I wouldn't go quite so far as to say it that way. I am freelance, so the responsibility of work was not a factor. I was not in an area that could expect to experience anything at all even in the absolute worst scenario (as in actually feasible ones, not scaremongering "All of Japan will be uninhabitable!" ones). I saw absolutely no reason whatsoever to abandon Japan. Really, even if we had been closer, unless there was proof that we were indeed in danger (not speculation by western media) I probably would have considered the whole idea of fleeing a big pain and not worth the trouble.

Even if we had been in immediate danger, we would have probably moved inside Japan. Making my husband quit his job to leave the country makes no sense to me, and leaving him behind and running to a "safer" country - as I was strongly encouraged to do by, well, everyone - was even more appalling.

I wasn't making any effort to stand up to a group, make a statement, etc. This is my home, this is where my family is now. Seriously, even in the case of a war I would side with my home and family in Japan.

[tokusatsufan]

This forum doesn't even have a delete button. I now have to post something.

[acjama]

Originally Posted by mikeyzan

where is the source japanese flee ?

From Asahi. Sorry, I have no links showing the empty seats in my company.

[acjama]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

But the attitude with the foreigners leaving (the ones I take issue with, not students, etc) was either that the entire country was unsafe, or that even if they knew it was safe where they were everyone else was leaving so it was a great time to leave.

Now you're just supposing and applying it to everyone.

It is natural for panicked people to run away if they have a place to run. But there are many reasons why communicating via phone (still THE main communication system in Japanese companies) didn't work, and since it did happen on a friday afternoon (plus the following train stoppage the next few weekdays), there wouldn't be anybody for awhile to take the call should somebody have gotten through. Perhaps they were inside an airplane already? Perhaps they were preoccupied trying to find a place to sleep for their kids upon arrival? Perhaps they would assume that companies would understand the extraordinary situation. I don't know the reasons why they did not call in, but that doesn't mean there aren't any.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

So, if the position isn't going to have a crippling effect on the country, you should be able to just walk away without even giving notice because it is the "thing to do" at the moment?

No. I'm saying that if you want to punish people because of intent or because the damage caused, you are free to do so, but please do so consistently. I see no intent nor damage, and therefore cannot condemn them lightly. Not after one of them contacted me because of a blog I wrote in those lines.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Remember, I am not talking about people in areas that were actually affected.

Of course.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

For those skilled positions, in order to get a visa you have to be considered vital and difficult to be replaced by a native Japanese worker.

But on the bottom line it all boils down to how the company distributes that vitality to foreigners. I see no Japanese company relying on a single foreign individual, no matter how "skillful" and "difficult to replace with a native" that foreigner is. Those accompanying letters to the Immigration Office are (in my part) true, but extremely glorifying, I think.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Most of the people who had the money to just run to the airport abandoning everything and hop on a plane home were in high paying skilled positions.

Two worked for my then girlfriend's company. No notice whatsoever. And they were soon replaced from an ample supply. I know it feels like betrayal, but that is grassroot level point of view. This is not war, there is no reason to "stand and FIIIGHT!".

Anyway, you of all people should know that foreigners in Japan cannot be sure to receive disaster aid, unemployment benefits, compensation from disrupted income etc, no matter how much they pay taxes.
Also pressure from relatives abroad may have risen to unbearable levels (I actually had to "pull rank" and remind my family who is the physicist with radiation safety work experience before they calmed down).

Leaving is understandable and timing of leaving (relating to giving notice or not) is subject to very unknown circumstances. I can't hate people just for those reasons.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by acjama

Now you're just supposing and applying it to everyone.

To everyone - no. Just to the large majority of those people who ran ASAP without giving notice, and those in completely unaffected areas who left on very short notice. That isn`t necessarily the majority of those who left - there were countless students ordered home, countless people who had no particular reason to remain in Japan, and numerous people who left with a little more planning and consideration.

But there were a LOT of people who ran like crazy without thinking about anything else. This has had negative effects on the opinion of and trust given to foreigners working and living in Japan.

As I work and live in Japan, but didn`t (and wouldn`t) run off and abandon responsibilities - I do not find this a pleasant thing. It falls in the same category as the countless English teachers who think it is cool to not pay their bills for a few months before leaving or the like before leaving because they can get away with it.

I don't know the reasons why they did not call in, but that doesn't mean there aren't any.

Your example works, maybe, for Tokyo and Tohoku.
I am not talking so much about Tokyo and Tohoku - I have pointed out multiple times that the people I had direct contact and experience with were in *Osaka* and *Fukuoka*.
There were no train stoppages in Osaka or Fukuoka. I don`t even think Osaka felt anything other than the most minor of shaking, if at all. Companies might be understanding in Tokyo or Tohoku... But Osaka and Fukuoka experienced *nothing* - other than the airports being crowded with people on the way out.

I'm saying that if you want to punish people because of intent or because the damage caused, you are free to do so, but please do so consistently.

There are damages other than simple and straight clear financial ones.
I rolled my eyes at the panic and didn`t really give a crap about the people who were leaving at the time - other than that they were fueling the over the top panic in the western media.
Now that I can`t find any company willing to hire me for even a short term translation project (when before I had people contacting me on a regular basis) because they are worried about me leaving with no notice should another earthquake occur because that is what happened with their last translator... And the couple of jobs I have managed to snag have required pretty serious contracts with me handing over all my incomplete, in process work at the end of each day so they won`t "lose" it should I run...

Yeah, I care now. The drop in trust and the far lowered expectations of responsibility shown toward the pool of skilled foreign workers in Japan has directly affected my quality of living. If I weren`t freelance and were working long term somewhere, then I would have the chance to prove my individual worth. But that isn`t the case, so I have basically lost 75%~90% of my job for the time being.

But on the bottom line it all boils down to how the company distributes that vitality to foreigners. I see no Japanese company relying on a single foreign individual, no matter how "skillful" and "difficult to replace with a native" that foreigner is.

Smaller companies *do*. They can`t afford to have a team. Some of the companies I have worked for can`t afford to have someone dedicated at all, so were relying on me for translation, interpretation, and half the explanations and negotiations taking place in English. I am not exceptionally amazing in this area, so I can say pretty confidently that these are not isolated cases.
If I had just up and disappeared, they would have been totally screwed. It wouldn`t have been a matter of replacement - it would have been starting almost from scratch.

Anyway, you of all people should know that foreigners in Japan cannot be sure to receive disaster aid, unemployment benefits, compensation from disrupted income etc, no matter how much they pay taxes.

Actually, I can`t really comment on this one as everyone I know who has followed proper procedure and filed things in a correct and timely manner has had no trouble. I know of quite a few people who have received disaster aid this time around.

Also pressure from relatives abroad may have risen to unbearable levels (I actually had to "pull rank" and remind my family who is the physicist with radiation safety work experience before they calmed down).

I think this is a very important thing to note. Something that amazed me during some parts of this were people who watched only US or UK news or received their "news" from family... even when it was completely outrageous and in contrast to reality. The numerous reports of people dying in the streets of Tokyo, etc, being one of the most extreme examples.
But instead of people correcting family, and giving them the real situation, they left Japan - which only supported the level of news hysteria. At the time, this was the biggest frustration.
Having people in the US say to me "The news said that the entire Pacific side of Japan is completely destroyed and people are dying in the streets from the radiation!! OMG!!!"... Countering with "No, the devastation is only in a small area, and the radiation is only severe in part of that." And having them come back at me with "But they had a bunch of families on that ran from Osaka and that is even further away than you are! You are going to DIE if you don`t run now!! Maybe your tsunami hasn`t reached you yet!! Run run!!" "Seriously, we are not in danger here."... "Then why are people in Osaka and Fukuoka running? You`re being deceived by the Japanese government!!" ... ad infinitum

Leaving is understandable and timing of leaving (relating to giving notice or not) is subject to very unknown circumstances. I can't hate people just for those reasons.

Hate individuals I do not. Hate the attitude that it was totally okay to not give notice, that leaving wouldn`t hurt anyone, and that it didn`t matter at all - I do. Running from areas distant from the trouble, and making it even harder for people with truly valid reasons to leave the country is, really, selfishness. A distant acquaintance had their visa ending in the third week of March. They were travelling after having finished up their university course. Their family had to pay 900,000yen to get them a ticket home so they weren`t hit with an overstay because the planes were so incredibly packed. It was ridiculous.

I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with the people (even in Fukuoka) who gave proper notice, paid their bills, then waited for the airports to clear out a little before going.

No, wait, now that I think about it - there is a group which I do feel disgust for the individuals of.
Those who ran off with little to no notice, but who came back as soon as the western media bored of the non-stop sensationalism. Who wanted their jobs back and who asked for vacation pay, or even a raise because they decided to grace "dangerous" Japan with their presence, etc. I only know of a couple of these, but that they existed at all is pretty pathetic.

[acjama]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

TBut there were a LOT of people who ran like crazy without thinking about anything else. This has had negative effects on the opinion of and trust given to foreigners working and living in Japan.

Preaching to the choir. Although I hold a long-term tech position, people don't "get on my face" that much. I was removed from a mailing list of a club that I frequented though, on the account that I was foreigner, hence ran like little rabbit when the tsunami came.

When people consider me first as a member of a large foreign group and as an individual second if at all, I consider that racist behaviour at best, and as a result I feel that that kind of people must be treated as racists. I have a smaller but much more trustworthy circle of Japanese acquaintances since March.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

As I work and live in Japan, but didn`t (and wouldn`t) run off and abandon responsibilities - I do not find this a pleasant thing.

No adult would.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Your example works, maybe, for Tokyo and Tohoku.

No, I don't think so. Fear for your family and yourself doesn't really start measuring distances. During Chernobyl, there was severe contamination several thousands of kilometers away, and there still is, after 25 years. Even today my home town has almost triple the radiation levels of Tokyo, and the distance to Chernobyl is over thousand kilometers as the crow flies.

Many Europeans still remember that, but since the J-gov decided to openly outsuck even the Soviet Union with regards to nuclear crisis management, that didn't really help things. Quite the opposite, the indifference of J-gov was a clear indication that any action, if even taken, would be too late.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Now that I can`t find any company willing to hire me for even a short term translation project...

I'm sorry to hear that.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

lowered expectations of responsibility shown toward the pool of skilled foreign workers in Japan has directly affected my quality of living.

But since you're not irresponsible, you shouldn't let people treat you as such. Japanese are just human. They can be racists, overgeneralize and make mistakes and poor judgements as anybody. Whether you want to support that image or reward this kind of behaviour is up to you, but I strongly recommend against encouraging racism. I have good experiences in showing my disappointment towards Japanese who, well, disappointed me.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

watched only US or UK news or received their "news" from family... even when it was completely outrageous and in contrast to reality.

Not only UK or US media. I came home one day and noticed that dad had tried to call me on skype several times. He'd been crying because he READ on newspaper that I was practically vomiting blood and incapacitated by incontinency somewhere on the streets of Tokyo, when actually I just had a lovely day viewing Hanami. I "opened my mind" on my blog about my country's national broadcast company practices (even when sis works there), and hits to my blog rose from the normal 24 per day to 22 000 in two days. I also provided video footage around since none of the panic mongers who earned their rightful place at the Journalist Wall of Shame bothered with any proof. I offended a few "journalists" and took a load off of several people, including a granny who's kid stayed behind. It was so worth it.

I completely understand people's panic if news agencies and likes of Facebook were their only information sources at the time.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

"Then why are people in Osaka and Fukuoka running? You`re being deceived by the Japanese government!!" ... ad infinitum

I read a Finnish blog to those lines, very rare. It was about Onagawa Nuclear plant, just 120km north of Fukushima. No reports of damage, so it was obviously covered up! ...Or, as it turned out, suffered no damage whatsoever since tsunami danger was not grossly underestimated (not a Tepco facility, you see).

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Hate individuals I do not. Hate the attitude that it was totally okay to not give notice, that leaving wouldn`t hurt anyone, and that it didn`t matter at all - I do.

And that makes you a good person.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Those who ran off with little to no notice, but who came back as soon as the western media bored of the non-stop sensationalism. Who wanted their jobs back and who asked for vacation pay, or even a raise because they decided to grace "dangerous" Japan with their presence, etc.

Really?
Unfortunately I don't find that hard to believe.

But if I generalize the behaviour of extreme cases to the whole racial group, I'd be no better than the scum racists who thought I ran away too just because I look different than Japanese.