Tattoo
 

I have sleeve tattoo's that consists of memorial art for my friends and family who are deceased. How sensitive are people in Japan about these kinds of things. Should I keep them covered at all times? Do I need to cover them at all? Are there certain times where its ok and others where its not?

It's good that you're concerned about this; it shows you're culturally sensitive! I'd say keep them covered as much as you can. Are you going for a trip? Going to live there? If the former, no biggie. If the latter, probably gonna cause you some problems. How far down does the tattoo go?

Also expect to not be admitted into any public bath houses, onsen (hot springs), or any other public bathing area. Sadly.

Ill be going for about a week on a trip. They are maybe 2 or 3 inches below my elbow, not too far. I'm a little disappointed that I will have trouble getting into an onsen. It was one of the things I was really looking forward to :( , but oh well, I'm sure there's plenty of things to keep me occupied in Japan :).

you probably wont get in to an onsen, but you might be able to find a smallish one and if your japanese is up to par, or you know someone who can speak, they might let you in say during quiet times.

it wont hurt to ask, cos the tattoo thing was mainly to keep the yakuza out and being a foreigner you might get lucky if you really want to go to one.

cant say i've ever heard anyone with tattoos try let alone get in though.

I'd say go ahead and try anyway! All I know is historically foreigners and people with tattoos have sometimes been refused service at onsen... putting them together might make things tricky, but I'm sure it depends strictly on the area you're in. I'll let some more knowledgeable people chime in about this as I've only been to an onsen once, but again, I'd recommend you try anyway if it's something you really wanna do :)

I think I might try to get into one. Seeing as how I'm very shy it might take a while for me to grow the confidence, but I have a friend that came to my town as a foreign exchange student ill be sure to keep him around.

Remember, if you ask the answer will always be "no".

Like, if he walks in and says something like, "あの、入っていいですか？", they'll say no?

In my experience most of the Onsen outisde of citys dont have a sign saying you cant enter with a tattoo, so ill try all off them without asking. If there is a sign i wouldnt go but there is no law forbidding tattos in japan so if there is no sign you couldn´t know.

I found that only 24hour Saunas/spas and sometimes Capsulehotels have this rules to keep said Yakuza out. Smaller Towns or Onsen Towns as well as Onsen attached to Hotels are usually ok.
Otherwise i´d keep them covered if possible.

On the other hand, Japanese who cannot come to terms with the innocent concept of foreigners getting tattoos are culturally insensitive d***s, and deserve to have it rubbed in.

I'd say just be yourself, wear what you want.

Thanks guys this is really helpful, I appreciate it :).

Other locals best answer this, but while onsen is probably a NO, you may have some luck with public bath, which is "onsen like"....

I think its more if you ask if tattoos are okay, they'll respond with 'no'.

Although the gym I went to while I was there just asked me to cover it up. Then again, a gym is not a bath house.

That's exactly what I mean.

I remember reading here someone saying they wanted to take pictures inside a store. There were no rules against taking pictures in the store, but if you ask the default answer will be "no". He asked, and the answer was "no".

Wow, I didn't know that. I'll keep that in mind next time I want to do something I'm not sure about!

edit: that sounds bad in retrospect, but nonetheless thank you for the info :D

Oh, great, yeah just recommend that someone further the stereotype of the offensive foreigner.

Actually there are places in the U.S. where displaying a tattoo is unacceptable and will get you barred from entering. Stupid, but legal. Most of the time its employees of large companies that discover this the hardway.
(about to bare my inked arm while the boss is out! :p )

That was me :ywave:

Honestly I had no problem with it not really all that much to take pics of unless you were into giant Gundam figures anyways :D

I was told in english upon walking into Prada in Shibuya "No photos please"

If stores were packed maybe I would have tried something, Tokyu Hands had no issues nor did the HMV.

Video game stores and arcades are very different story.

Back on topic, the only Japanese walking around with sleeve tats are Yakuza hence the "No tattos" signs

I'm sorry; what?

I think the sterio-type here is ignorant Japanese, not offensive foreigner.

I mean, some things are to be respected; I never used to take my shoes off to enter a house in Australia, but you must do it in Thailand. But there can be a point where demands of a country can really go overboard and start to be a bit offensive in themself.

I've got lots of tattoos. They're not intended to offend. Actually, I've two pieces of writing which are English translations of Japanese sayings, and also two symbols which are based on Japanese concepts... and they'd be offended? That's pretty arrogant.

It's like Muslim countries telling men they must grow beards, or women must cover their head, even if you're not Muslim; it isn't very positive or accepting.

If Japanese are offended by basic Western standards, it isn't our fault, and we don't have to change for them.

People should come as they are in a free country; not come as how you're told.

Actually, I'd say it's about the equivalent of the French public schools telling Muslim girls they could not wear their head scarf because it violates school uniform; it's just plain rude.

To expect another culture and/or country conform to you is pretty arrogant.

It has nothing to do with ignorance.

Tenchu lives in Thailand and is in the "If you can't join 'em, then beat 'em" mode. If he doesn't like something about the culture, or doesn't want to conform with it, then the country has to do it his way. Why? Because they are idiots.

It is a pretty common reaction, especially for non-speakers of the native tongue. I saw it quite a bit in foreigner in Japan who after a certain amount of time come to detest their "host country" and start drinking and complaining a lot.

There is little that can be said here to change their minds.

While I would agree that to penalize foreigners for something that cannot be changed for a visit to their country does not put the Japanese in a good light, and in this case when the person is obviously not native it is insensitive on their part to ban them from otherwise public places.

However, to blatantly disregard the host country's customs and expectations of behavior is even less excusable.

Both are wrong, but when you are a visitor you have chosen to be there and there is a implied agreement to abide by their rules. This applies in any situation short of one that would cause injury.

Polar,

I'm not expecting anyone to conform, I'm asking for a little bit of tolerence towards my way of life.

Actually, I don't really understand how tattoos are offensive, anyway? Can someone actually explain why I should even be asking for tolerence here?

This strikes me as something like burning books, or destroying artwork that is not your taste. It's just wrong. There is no way a tattoo can hurt a person, so banning them is as far from democracy as angels can fly.

MMM,

That's not a very good assesment. And what does not speaking Thai have to do with it? I'm learning it, and getting pretty good. It does not change how I feel about some things.

Anyway, I'd challenge you to give some examples of this about me that would hold any water. I only have a few issues about Thailand, and they're pretty solid; nationalism here and unconditional respect for their King is enforced through what constitutes to brainwashing. Adherance to these traditions is coerced in methods similar to those used by the CIA to interogate terrorist suspects into compliance.

Other things, such as my disrespect for criminals and rip off merchants, they're pretty straight forward, but still put me apart from many Thais; such as my objection to prostitution as a solution to poverty.

Don't be forgetting, you know my wife was pregnant, and I'm intending on raising children in this country. She miscarriaged the last mongrel, but she isn't on the pills right now, so I'm expecting something.

Someone telling me I have no right to sift the bullshit out of this country when this'll be the play pen for my young, that's pretty arrogant.

Before the kid's even born, I'm fighting with my wife because of this; I refuse to send any offspring to a Thai school here. Reason being the brainwashing they use to tame people.

As if there's a point to Thai school... my wife's sister is a teacher; she has no idea what Roman numerals are. I'd have to be 10 times smarter than her; I can home school.

Point is, this stuff effects me and my family, and more in the future. There's no way I can throw away everything intelligent I ever learned that our ancestor have spent building through civilization after civilization for thousands of years just because I move to a foreign land. I have the responsibility to put faith in them, and pass this on to my children, and especially adhere to it myself.

TalnSG,

Well, read my other paragraphs in this post first.

I'll just add for you; I don't consider myself as a visitor. Firstly because I'm never going to leave. Secondly, I've not really anywhere I consider to be visiting from. This sounds odd, but I'm an Earthling, not a national.

I say this because my parents are New Zealanders, but I was born and raised in Australia. The law changed when I was young, and New Zealanders born abroad were not automatically entitled to citizenship. I was not Australian either. I was at risk of being a citizen of no country, but ended up a New Zealander (complimentry). Yet I've only ever been to New Zealand for one month of my life, and don't identify with that country.

I don't really identify with Australian culture, either... one bit... but that's for personal reasons. But it isn't like I call that place home.

At the same time, my people are Anglo-Saxons; Europeans.

I can trace my citizenship accross 2 countries, and my ancestory accross 10. Having grown up in a multicultural country and having such a diverse and complex background, I'm not going to listen to someone who tries to tell me to shut up because this isn't my "home"...

Also, to put more spin on it, in some countries, getting tattoos is custom and very important. A lot of Africans have those baroque tattoos on their face, as do Maoris. And in Thailand, monks and Muay Thai fighters ger covered in Sak Yant charm tattoos to bring them skill, power or wisdom.

Exluding a Thai monk from an event because he attended a traditional Buddhist temple in the past and got tattoos is little different than just outright putting a sign up like "No Jews" or "No Muslims".

It's time Japan realized it's not the center of the universe.

In Japanese culture your body is considered a gift from your parents. To mark it up is considered an insult to your father and mother. Even piercing was relatively rare until the most recent generations.

Tattoos are associated with the yakuza, where they literally give their bodies to their "new parents" so to speak. The tattoos show an undying dedication to their yakuza boss.

That's tattoo culture in Japan, and I hope that answers your question.

Here's an example:
This is exactly the attitude I see in usually non-Japanese speaking foreigners in Japan who get frustrated after a few months or more of living in Japan.

I don't think I am the one being arrogant. But this isn't about you and me.

Japan doesn't see itself as the center of the universe, but it does see itself as the center of Japan, and to come into a foreign country and say "I am doing things my way, like it or not" is the top of the heap of arrogance. New visitors should be quite the opposite: humble...at least until they know their way around.

MMM, to be honest, I think this is the first real time you've tried to wind me up. Really, I'm drunk right now (spent the evening with beer, Star Wars and Avatar: The Last Airbender). I'll reply to you later. I think you're very arrogant.

If I remember correctly, you didn't drink before you moved to Thailand.

And no, I am not trying to wind you up...

I have a question concerning this, not that I have tattoos or plan on getting one... Do Japanese, generally speaking, care about tattoos on someone who is not Japanese? I know they aren't stupid, generally, and should realize that tattoos means different things to different cultures. Most people have never heard of that respect to parents thing (I bet that many Japanese haven't either, I hope I remember to ask this next time I'm in town).
I know this does not represent the majority of Japanese, but the Japanese I talked to and met while in Japan seemed so open to the world and it's cultures and politics that I couldn't imagine them suddenly retreating because of a tattoo.

In the US? I am not saying you are wrong, but what kind of place in the US would bar you from entering because of a tattoo? People would be all over them for rights infringements. Unless it's private property where ANYTHING the owners don't like can have you legally barred (even racism or sexism or whatever), I don't know where else this could apply.

Yes and no...if I were meeting my Japanese girlfriend's parents I would do what I could to make sure they didn't see my tattoos (if I had any).

On the other hand, the Japanese culture is generally one of acceptance as long it isn't hurting me personally, which is why homosexuality, for example, isn't considered a "problem in society".

If you were to ask a Japanese person why they don't want to get a tattoo, I doubt they would say "because I respect my parents". It's more of subtle, ingrained thing. The Japanese people I have talked to usually don't want one because it "looks dirty". I also know some Japanese rock and rollers that have tattoos, so obviously that isn't universal.

And the answer would be "yes" if you were trying to get into a onsen where tattoos are not allowed. The reason tattoos are not allowed is because it keeps the yakuza out, and you can't say "No yakuza" but you can say "no tattoos." So if an onsen lets a foreigner in who has tattoos and the yakuza hears about it, there will be hell to pay.

I know Costco does not allow employees with pierces anywhere besides the ears work there. They were sued over it and won.

You will find that corporate America is not open to diversity as we would like to think. Management is largely still run by those who grew up in an era when only "drunken sailors" and criminals had tattoos. It isn't right, but because it goes to the issue of public image and many companies have spent obscene amounts of money to find ways to publicly prohibit anything in someone's appearance they don't like. Unless it is religiously protected (and there si a list of recognized religions and enforceable practices - you can't just make it up), they can do as they wish. The only requirement is that they have to enforce it on everyone.

In my instance, the university system passed a dress code requiring sleeves. No sleeveless shirts or blouses means no one should ever see my tattoo while I am on campus ---- at least not in my official capacity. My supervisor tried to force me to cover it before this dress code was passed and my refusal was regarded as "bad attitude" on my annual review. But once the dress code was published I had no recourse.

And after working in government, and in public and private industries of all sorts for more than 30 years, I can confirm that it is quite common.

Sometimes I feel like I live in either a sheltered life or am just lucky not to experience certain things, despite the fact I've been all over the US and the world. It may very well help that I am pretty modest in just about everything I do.

I worked as an intern for NASA in Mississippi (rocket engine testing), and over there I noticed a programmer who had tattoos completely down one of his arms and two on the side of his shaven head. Obviously, no one had a problem with him working there as he was skilled and did his job. Maybe it's because it was a government job that no such restrictions are in in place. Dunno...

And your university is strict! Although, I find it understandable since it may distract others in a learning environment to have someone guy's hairy armpits or girl's cleavage out in open sight. We have the usual "no hats in a classroom" and a general "be properly dressed". Apparently, pajamas are considered "proper" for some. :rolleyes: They don't have regulations about specific things like sleeves at my university... yet.

Well, actually, I have been refused jobs before because of my tattoos. Mostly when it involves the public or customer relations. My friend works at a movie theater and they don't just stop at barring tattoos. You have to wear you hair a certain way, a certain color, and a certain length. You have to wear dress shoes, of a certain type, and only black. Women may have ponytails, but must be tucked into their hat that they must wear at all times. So I consider myself lucky that I found a job in which they allow me to wear pretty much whatever I want.

Yes, but this isn't so in foreign culture. Why should foreigners be subject to this standard?

MMM, I'm not going to conform to a foreign culture that tries to tell me I'm a gansta who disrespected my parents because I got a tattoo. I'll simply tell them that the world might be a little bigger than they once thought, and I'll welcome them into it.

Yes, I'm familiar with your type here in Thailand, also.

Actually, in my experience, most of the tourists who just arrive are your type, and when they stay a bit longer some stay the same, but a lot change into what I am.

It's impossible, you see, for someone to become as pissed off as I am until they get a decent understanding of it. Most the things I'm pissed off at, I wasn't aware of them until I'd been here over a year.

In Thailand, we call people like you "Asiaphiles", "**** heads", or "**** suckers". I'm not saying I call you that, but just giving you an idea.

Most people who get down on their knees and take it, in Thailand, are the ones who're always trying to defend the Thais. It's like they think they're perfect, or something, and just can't bear to have anyone insult their precious Thais.

Of course, people like this piss me off, because they usually end up defending plain double standards. Things I've told you before, where white men have to pay more simply because they're white. This is so common in Muay Thai training.

There is no cure for people like you, as you're not sick. The problem is physically embedded in your brain, and can only be smoothed out with hard blows with a baseball bat.

See, all I ever wanted was to be treated the same as Thais, but people call me the racist one... because I want equality?

Well, I found a non racist Muay Thai gym and have some real great Thai friends now. I don't get ripped off anymore. You can find good people in this horde of Thai scammers, you just have to look for them.

In the case of Japan, if I were to go there with my tattoos, I'd be politely asking them to respect my culture and show just a little social acceptence. If you've got a problem with that, then keep calling me a racist idiot like eveyone else does. But I rest assured that social acceptance and equality are things worth persisting for.

Also, I started drinking long before I hated racism in Thailand. I started in Germany when my life fell apart and I lost my job.

Anyway, MMM, I think how the cultural respect thing is supposed to go is, when someone does something based on their culture, you tolerate and accept it/them.

For example, if you've a Muslim friend fishing with you at sunset and he wanders off for a minute and starts praying, you don't laugh at him and call him a dick, you give him space and respect.

Then when you pull your beers out while fishing, he's not allowed to start preaching to you about not drinking, either, because he has to respect you and your culture.

Or if you have a Christian friend, and you want them to come fishing on Sunday morn, but they say they're going to church; don't get pissed off at them, just ask them if they'll come in the evening or something instead.

What is not cultural respect would be, when your Muslim friend goes to pray in the evening, he doesn't try to make you come with him. He respects that you're not Muslim.

Or you don't try and force you Muslim friend to drink beer with you, because you have to understand his ways.

Or your Christian friend doesn't start shoving your mail box full of salvation pamphlets and what not, because he knows you're not Christian.

That is respect. It's about living together in harmony; not pushing your ways on others.

Of course, some things should be done as a courtesy; take your shoes off when entering a Thai persons house because they don't want a dirty floor. Perhaps when a Thai person gives you a wai (placing the hands together in front of the face to say hello) you should return it. Or, when a westerner offers to shake hands, don't refuse.

It's okay to do things as courtesy, but there's a limit, and there's a difference between respect and being trodden on.

It basically ends when they try to dictate your dress code, say you can't enter because of your skin color, or because you have tattoos. Saying certain religions are unwelcome. Forcing people to do things your way going over the top with it; asking someone to take their shoes off because you want your floor clean is way different than telling a Maori to get out because he's covered in tattoos.

It's funny how all you asiaphiles have made so many rules in your own countries to make sure everyone has the most equal rights and there's no form of social exclusion whatsoever, but when you go to Asia, and the favor is not returned, you just pay it off and say it's a different country and you have to respect that...

it is a standard for everyone. why would a standard be able to be broken just because you're from some other land?

I call people like you "a moron", I'm not saying I call you that, but just giving you an idea.

So if the standard in a Western country is no Muslims head scarfs allowed in public schools, or no wearing Che Guevara T-shirts in public places, negros not allowed on golf courses, internet sites pulled down for advertising human rights, so on, this is all okay, right?

My tattoos demonstrate my religous belief; I can post pics of them to prove it if you want. It represents everything I've worked for and my pride about who I am and what I do... and I'm supposed to tolerate someone who tells me it means I'm a disrespectful criminal?

Like I said; asiaphile.

Hard to find someone to agree with on this situation, since the relevance to each argument is situational. There are going to uptight people who are rigid about their customs and there will be more open and understanding people.

One big issue that I see conflicting here is the mixture of high and low context societies. Two great examples of a high and low context culture is, of course, Japan and the US. Japan has cultural bits up the wazoo. America has hardly any beyond basics or it has small sub-cultures that have to accepting to the other cultures around them. Therefore, it sort of makes sense that the enforcement of culture is a one-way issue.

However, I found that while I was in Japan that people there were pretty tolerant of my ignorance of certain things. There were many times that I spoke my mind (honestly) and while I did realize this wasn't something I should do too strongly in Japan, I was actually complemented for doing so! I never got used to the bowing thing, I usually got away with just a nod (most of them usually only do a sort of nod anyways). And I am sure there were things I got away with that I didn't even realize. But I did try to fit in for the most part (I was there for the culture after all). I am sure they had just a hard time grasping what it meant to be someone from a low context culture, where we communicate everything straight-forward and set up an environment where people can't make as many mistakes (whereas Japanese have an environment where you are expected to do certain things).

Another example is when I had a Japanese teacher who taught math at my university (judging from her thick accent, came from Japan herself), she would not give out her first name in her introduction as any other professor would do. She insisted that her first name was a private thing and that she's only comfortable with people close to her knowing (although it was easy to just look it up :D ). We thought she was weird for this (although she was strange in other ways too), but we did not tell her all that "when in Rome" crap.

Tolerance comes from knowing how your culture is compared to other's. If people can't help it or just don't feel right, conflicting with a culture, either tolerate it or come to a compromise. There's so much gray to the issue that it's hard to make it black and white.

Tenchu, I didn't say a single word about life in Thailand. You called the Japanese bad words because you didn't like how the Japanese culture views tattoos. I would never defend a double-standard like different prices for different races in Japan or anywhere in the world.

I very much do not appreciate the analogy of me being beaten in the head with a baseball bat. I will not put up with those kinds of analogies in the future.

You may ask politely to be treated with respect despite your tattoos, but you are still not getting into most Japanese onsens. It is not because you are white, but because you are inked. Your choice is to accept it or go to a place that accepts tattoos, but that is a door you closed on yourself when you decided to get inked.

Tenchu, don't make this into anything it is not. You are angry people with tattoos aren't allowed in Japanese onsens. I explained why. That is it. Do not bring up "you Asiaphiles" and double-standards and veiled insults. Again, it isn't about you and me.

your examples are just plain outrageous. lets say "no pissing in public" is a standard, should you be able to piss on our streets because you're German? standards are set for everybody, not against a certain person. live with it.

Yes you did. You compaired my life in Thailand to similarities you'd seen displayed by "arrogant" foreigners in Japan.

Given this arguement is basically about Westerners bowing to foreign culture, I think my examples are relevant.

I'd really be surprised if you were against the double pricing. Perhaps you would be, or perhaps you'd have to see it yourself to convert to asiaphile status on this one.

The main thing is, Thais are on average poorer than Westerners who come to Thailand. So they say it is based on income. But it isn't; wealthy Thais still pay less for these things than poor Westerners. And poor Westerners, like myself right now, who're living on only about $7 US per day, similar to most Thais, are still expected to pay more. But this fact is overlooked always, and the simpleton comeback "All Westerners are rich" is reapplied...

That was a joke I found hysterically funny; it isn't my fault if you didn't think so. Don't shoot the comedian.

Euah... I just don't think you get it.

How does this statement sound: "I recommend negros and people with tattoos stay clear of Japan, as they're intolerant"???

It doesn't sound good, but it's true, and it seems you don't have a problem with that. The reason I say asiaphile is because I know if I used this statement to describe America, you'd be outraged. Yet you've formed a double standard for Japan.

In my case, I've never really decided to get "inked". I chose to express my religous views through tattoos. I can think of three other cultures who do this; Maori, Thai Buddhist/Muay Thai, and some African thing I dunno what it's called. The simple fact is, Japanese do not tolerate these cultures. Yes, I've an issue with that.

Even those who get meaningless tattoos just for self expression; their self expression and free speech is clearly not tolerated in Japan and gets trampled on.