Veni, Vidi, What the hell was that?
 

I just spent 5 weeks in Japan, backpacking around Tokyo and southern cities.
Now I'm back home, and happy to be.

Before going to Japan, I didn't expect anything. But now... damn how do I put this.

I learned to hate and love Japan.

Tokyo is the most depressing city I've ever been to. People are either overworking and spending all their money in shopping centers or pachinko. Or they have stupid part-time jobs and aspiring to be like the other ones.

Tokyo is the most exciting city. Neon lights, crowds, this city is alive energetic. People move back and forth like fish in big metallic streams they call "Metro". At dinner or supper, restaurants are full. Even on week days, there would be people everywhere.

This is but only one of the paradoxical emotions I felt about the two-faced giant.

Of course I wasn't there to criticize Japan, only to see. But I couldn't just stand there and not think about right and wrong. Anyway, I'm still pretty confused about this travel experience as I just got back. But what I'm sure of is that there is something not very sane about the Japanese people, something I didn't appreciate at all. Cultural shock you might say? Maybe, but that would be too simple.

So this is a small message to all of you who see pink or even gray. There are other things in Japan than Mt. Fuji and Amine. And the dark side of Japan is even darken than you can imagine.

I'm not even sure of what I'm saying. Things seem so unclear. But I have this feeling that could be translated by the sentence : "What the hell was that country full of crazy people".

Peace

All cities are like this. I grew up in cities, and I've often felt the same way. While you may love the energy, the lights, the crowds, the convenience, cities can also be quite bleak.
I often felt this way in New York City. There is no "normal." For me, I always had a hard time with people. I didn't care who they were but at the same time I did. I was always surrounded by a thousand people, whom by the next day I'd never see again. Or, I'd be sitting down at one of a million restaurants in the city, and sometimes I'd think that somewhere in this city there's a much cooler spot I could be at, but I'm not because I chose this spot.

It's ironic, really. Here you are surrounded by many more people than the average person, but you feel even more detached from them.

huhu.. it might be late, but I really wanna say it..
"welcome" to Japan! ;)

I don't think the insanity is in the city or in the individual people, but in taking in all their lives all at once. That is what a major metropolis is: millions of stories taking place at the same time.

Well said.

It's probably the same in all major cities.

I could say the same with the city where I live and it's no way near the size of Tokyo and not even near the amount of people!!!

I think that as a backpacker, walking around the city - particularly during "work" hours - is going to give you a VERY skewed perception of people`s lives. The endless stream of people doing such and such that you see is only maybe a few minutes out of each individuals life. And if you`re wandering the streets, you`ll encounter the "outside" culture of others who wander about... Not the regular lives of regular people. Most of life goes on behind closed doors, in private locations.

Haha, the inaka is the other side of that coin. People are certainly busy and overworked here, but the hustle and bustle is gone. You have more of that "my pace" (to borrow an "English" phrase from Japanese) feel here.

I don't really like Tokyo all that much either... but I always find it interesting how a lot of the buildings continue several stories underground. It's the same thing with all the people running around. The rushing figure that you see is only the tip of the ice berg, really.

I think the "salary men" (and women too) that reside in the city have it really hard. Some of them might have great pay, but what's the point? How do you figure that kind of standard of living? Maybe some people like it, but that would be hell for me. As far as I understand you show up early to work to impress the boss, work hard all day, go out to lunch with your co workers, and then go out drinking for hours after work on a regular basis. They get home past midnight and start all over again about 5 to 6 hours later. I've seen personal friends dissapear in this lifestyle... it's like they get sucked into the "scenery" of the Tokyo that you've described.

Again, though, you see emulations of this lifestyle in the inaka, too. It's to a lesser degree for certain though. What the hell is everyone working so hard on... or for for that matter? Even though I delve deeper and deeper into understanding Japanese culture, that is something I think I will never be able to have empathy for. It's just crazy from my perspective.

This is a great example of too much of a good thing. Five weeks is an extremely long time to spend in a foreign country. I am curious as to how many weeks in the love/hate began.

I think there are people who fall into the condition of "culture shock"... I wouldn't be surprised if you could find some graphs talking about how long it usually takes people to start disliking somewhere. The first week or month or so is usually, according to what I have read about the subject at least, the best part of the ride. Then you start getting ups and downs at varying intervals until a pattern is revealed.

It's weird because I'd say that's just life... there are ups and downs. I think you'd just feel them more being in a foreign country.

I doubt anyone who loves hiking and being in the peacefulness and contemplative mood of nature really likes what they see upon entering a big city. If they did they wouldn't be so interested in leaving the city and work behind them in the first place. I'm sure it all seems bleak and pointless.

I consider myself a city person. I could not live in a place any smaller than where I live now. When I go on vacation I only go to bigger cities, it's just the way I am. I really enjoy the stark contrasts between the good and the bad of big cities. I don't think I would feel so strongly the good I do enjoy from them if they were without their dark complex underbelly. Much like real people I truly like, I enjoy complexity, I appreciate a bit of grit. I also enjoy feeling like one small fish caught up in the waves. It makes me feel calm and human. I know it's strange but that's how I've felt about it since I was a small girl living in a small town.

Sorry if that all sounds too odd.

Personally I always find capitol cities to be completely different from the rest of the country too; despite being by nature 'representative' of that country, they don't actually show much typicality as everything's at one end of an extreme. I loved Japan, disliked Tokyo. Loved Thailand, loathed Bangkok. Adore England, but you're really going to have to work hard to convince me I'll ever want to live in London.

my conclusion; capitol cities are always a bit skank.

The strange love/hate feeling started the first week. But it became much more stronger the last two weeks. Maybe because I was traveling a lot during the three first weeks.

Before I came to Japan, I knew that people would be behind this social mask, I knew they would be polite and respectful, I knew there would be a load of people, etc.

But living it. It's so different.

I like Tokyo, I like big cities. But I guess that it's the Japanese who made me hate Japan (as strange as it can be). And that's kind of racism I guess.

I just didn't like the "You are a stranger, so I have to be kind to you, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry" thing. They "hide" their emotions but anybody a little intelligent can see through it. That was insulting. And when someone would seem more friendly, I would never know if it was true or if he was just playing nice.

And I felt very excluded. It's hard to explain. Body language, intonation, looks, I don't know exactly what, I just felt it.

Now I don't know what to do. I had a life challenge of going to Japan and live there. Work as a game programmer or even designer. But now, I realize that the cultural barrier will be harder to break.

Is making friends in Japan that hard, or is it just me?

That's how I felt before going to Japan. I was very interested in Japanese social problems.

But now it's not about good or bad, it's about a cultural differences that make social interactions difficult.

False. You never even mingled with the locals. How the hell do you know how they live?

So, we're a nation of 130 million lunatics? Nice comment.

I wish I could live a life as simple as yours, then. Where are you from, Heaven? And why the heck did you stay the whole five weeks as planned?

Thanks for reminding me of how crazy we are.
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lol You knew what the source of the problems was from the start! Should have mentioned it in your first post.

I'll stop here as talking to a racist is a waste of time.

I think that you`re both looking at cultural differences... And ignoring some of them at the same time. A lot of the social cues you picked up leading to the "just felt it" do not always carry the same meaning in Japanese culture as others. You`re picking up that difference, but interpreting the difference according to your own social background and culture.

That just doesn`t work.

The "hiding" emotions... Chances are, there wasn`t much emotion to hide. You`re reading hints that would work in your own culture. Even things at that level are different in Japanese culture - but it`s all subtle. People just don`t react to other people in the same way. The signs of friendliness and unfriendliness are just not the same as the culture you`re used to. A lot of the uneasiness you likely picked up on had nothing to do with you - but personal doubt in English ability. This is why the world sort of changes once you`re fluent in Japanese. That wall disappears - and it is the largest, even with people who seem fluent in English.

@Sashimister : I'm not saying I hold the infinite truth and wisdom, I'm telling you guys what I felt. Which is far away from reality. When I say "Japanese are crazy", that's from my point of view. And I'm not saying all Japanese are the same, I would like to believe that everybody is human and therefore, the same. But the really, because of several cultural aspects, it's hard to measure

And about the language difficulties... I speak Japanese. And about me wrongly perceiving Japanese cues. I don't know. I would say you are right, but I'm not a 100% sure.

For example, my friend had a meeting with a Japanese he met back in US. They both agreed to meet up somewhere at Shinjuku station. He waited but she didn't come. And then she said she lost her phone... I mean, yeah maybe she lost her phone. But the chances are that she didn't want to come, but didn't want to say it. So she made him wait instead. It wasn't even a date. She could have said like "Oh it might be a bit hard to do it" or something like that. Then we could have guessed she couldn't come.

Ok maybe it's a bad example because it's a guy and a girl. But then we met her and she had this extremely phony intonation in English when she was talking to us (even while laughing) but would speak "normally" with her Japanese friend.

Not all Japanese I met were fake though. I met this very friendly old man who helped me find my way in Asakusa. I walked with him since he was going to the same direction (not only because he was being nice). We talked and I didn't feel a second he was being fake. And another strange women I met on the train to Nikko was very expressive. She told me things she thought about Japanese girl being shy in bars and how men she would go out with would be too shy to kiss in public, walk hand in hand. I guess some of them are more true to strangers because they feel it's easier with them. (She even asked me if I was gay. It was pretty direct.)

Isn't it true that Japanese have communication problems with each other?

I am sorry, but if this was your first time spending some time in Japan... I question your ability to speak Japanese. Studying outside of Japan, and actually learning it while immersed in the culture are completely different things. If you are making a fair number of mistakes, the other people may feel pressured to adjust their speech for your comprehension (INCREDIBLY tiring and stressful, no matter how friendly you feel toward the other person) or feel they should be trying harder to communicate with you in English.

That "phony intonation" is pretty normal. It`s not "phony", and I have no idea why it exists, but a LOT of people feel they should have a different "voice" in English.

She told me things she thought about Japanese girl being shy in bars and how men she would go out with would be too shy to kiss in public, walk hand in hand. I guess some of them are more true to strangers because they feel it's easier with them. (She even asked me if I was gay. It was pretty direct.)[/quote]

This one strikes me as more off putting than the rest of what you`ve mentioned. She was using you as a fantasy support - I`m guessing she was the type with a weird complex about how all foreign men are romantic and perfect, (usually from watching western movies...), and "showing off" by telling you how poorly she thinks of Japanese men and how highly she thinks of foreign men. It`s not being open - it`s trying to impress you, and pretty childish. Like the teens who run around saying they absolutely hate their home countries, home towns, etc... And saying they want to run off to Japan because it`s perfect there. Telling a Japanese person this isn`t being open - it`s trying to impress them but being immature about the whole thing.

What I say is based on what I saw (weekdays, weekends, 1AM, 5AM, Lunch time, name it). Why are there so many shopping centers and pachinko?

You don't need to insult me, but if you felt insulted by my posts you can use arguments to prove me I'm wrong and that all of what I felt is pure delusion. And I stayed there 5 weeks because I like Japan too. I'm already starting to miss the little beeps when you cross streets.

Well human brain is basically racist. Racism has the same process that makes you say "this chair is a chair". Because it's much more easier for the brain to regroup different objects with similar characteristics. Now, I found similarities between some Japanese and I'm applying those to all of them. That's why I call myself a "racist" but it doesn't mean I'm hateful.

And now please lets not turn this thread into hate. I just want to share my experience back there. And I'm not the only one to have experienced the same. In fact, many of the backpackers I met agreed with me on certain things. Backpackers from France, New Caledonia, Australia, New Zealand, Burma, Los Angeles and Canada.

I understand what you are saying and it's probably true. But even if my vocabulary is still poor in Japanese but I can speak. I know enough Japanese to live in Japan right now. I have been studying Japanese for 3 years now. And when I didn't understand one particular word they would use their cellphone to search for the English equivalent.

But while laughing? You don't laugh in English? And she studied in US. I don't think she wasn't confident about her English skill level.

Very interesting, since she was probably 25 years older than me. Maybe more. Well yeah, she was flirting. But at the same time we would have interesting discussions too. The "shy thing" was just to show how Japanese can criticize Japanese. And I'm not the western-type guy, I live in Canada but I was born in Nicaragua. People fail at guessing where I'm from usually.

Alright so, as ironic as it can be I just received a PM saying "F*cking Hater, stay home".

I guess it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation on Internet with people reading a tenth of what you say, so I will make everyone happy.

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Japan is the best place to live in the world

Japanese people are very kind and they will do whatever it takes to help you if you need it. Japan has a great culture and history. It is also avant-gardist in many fields such as robotics, electronics, fashion etc.

Long live Japan!

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Let me know who sent that PM and I will take care of it.

Knowing enough to get by in life, and knowing enough to be treated as a Japanese speaker by others are completely different things. I am guessing that most likely everyone spoke to you as simply as they could - which is an incredibly stressful endeavor.

Yes, you DO laugh in English. If she was in English speaking mode, with her "English voice" - switching out of that just for laughing would be pretty hard. It really has little to do with actual English ability. But even if she studied in the US, that doesn`t mean that she was confident. In fact, it could have made her LESS confident as there would be more pressure for her to be a good speaker. But really, English ability itself has nothing to do with the weird "English voice" phenomenon.

That really matters a lot less than you may think. The "western-type guy" doesn`t have to be white. You just have to not be Asian and be from an English speaking country. In your case, if you answered a question about where you`re from with "Canada" - you fit.

Yea a lot of people do that talk with me. (about being the "perfect foreigner"). In a sense I fit right into it... but there are some spots where I don't match that picture perfect image and it can be hard to try to meet people's expectations all the time. In a sense, really knowing Japanese (which includes cultural things) you can dissapoint people straight away. Like you're a foreigner, but you've been tainted with the "japanese" way of thinking. But I digress haha.

Another thing, Nyororin is spot on with what she's saying. I find myself agreeing with pretty much all of her posts on the topic of language acquisition/communication. It's sometimes embarassing to admit it, but I have basically two selfs-- my Japanese self and my English self. They're two very different things... my voice changes my mannerisms change. I think that's important though. Communication, down to the mannerisms and gestures, is really VERY different in Japan and America. So much so that Japanese people are weird seen from Americans' perspective (or the "western world's). Then again, there are a lot of things that Japanese people find weird about us. The point is to at the very least understand those differences. If you want to learn the language (and be decent at it) then you have to accept those differences as truths (at least for your L2 self). I think seeing those differences as negative things after a period of being "immersed" is actually quite normal... but I think you'll find it more worthwhile and a LOT more respectful to come to an understanding rather than talking about those differences in a negative light.

Again though, I tend to go on and on with this kind of stuff. Nyororin put it straight and simple for you, but I hope that what I've typed has helped a little as well.

And as a reminder, I did say that it's quite natural to look at these kinds of differences in a negative light for people. So while anyone doing that is certainly in the wrong, it helps to educate them about it. Immediately picking out the faults in this and dwelling on them and being too blunt might not get anywhere. It's better to just educate people about this in a nice manner. You might learn something yourself by doing so... what's the worst that could happen? I mean if the person isn't receptive then there's nothing forcing you to keep talking to them. But approaching these things means approaching these things as a representative of whatever country you're from, so getting angry or overly straightforward might put more of a dark light on your country to the person you're trying to shed some good light to.

Sounded like quite the experience.

There is definitely a darker side to Japan - as there is with almost every other place - and it's not something I expect a lot of "die-hard" Japanese enthusiast would be willing to genuinely accept.

To most outsiders, Japan is the land with the exotic culture. It's the kingdom of sugar pop, fantastic fashion, and extraordinary technology. But what of the actual natives of all of it? To the natives, generally, it's their home; it's still amazing but familiar to an extent that they may view it all differently. The way I see it, there is a commercial super power occupying a certain part of Japan's mentality. It's aimed at the outside world, but the natives get caught in the middle at some point also. They develope a belief in it. That, to me, can create what a lot of visitors may define as, in this case, partial insanity?

I'm probably sounding really ridiculous...

Underneath the laminated image presented to visitors, real human issues exist: murder, suicide, robberies, scams, etc. All that is not presented to us, the foreigners.

It's such a cliché point, and I'm not saying anything profound... but some people really do need to let go of their illusions about Japan. It may even make things a lot more pleasant.

Culture shock being "too simple"? I'm not sure I agree with that. Anything can be too simple if you give it the chance. In my opinion, culture shock is significantly complex, and it is probably most (but not entirely) relevant to your case.

Phew, I'm happy to see that people could discuss something out of it.

Sorry Nyororin, everything is still not crystal clear for me. I'm kind of sad because from you point of view I might be the generic foreigner that doesn't understand anything about Japanese. Maybe I'm not that stupid, maybe I can understand some things out of Japanese (like why a Japanese would keep wearing a hot sweater even if summer came earlier). Doubt on my person is something that would be appreciated.

One thing that I think you are right about is that a lot of this has to do with me. With my mental health maybe, I don't know.

I guess my fear was to not be able to make Japanese friends in the future and therefore, not to be able to live in Japan. Can you imagine yourself studying a foreign language and culture for 3 years, finally going to the country, and realizing that the road is a hundred times more difficult than expected or even impossible? It's horrifying.

From what you've explained to me, I also fear that stress-less communication with Japanese is impossible without full understanding of the language (including body language). I find it a bit hard to believe.

From the flip side, I did Japanese and psychology in university and had to spend a week observing social behavior, I really noticed that people have a different 'voice' for Japanese than they do for English. They even alter their body language. Some of the blokey geezers softened their tone and evened it out, they don't square up with their shoulders as much, especially if talking to girls. A couple of guys who were normally flat-toned and dead-pan would start exaggerating stresses in sentences and use their eyes a lot more. Perhaps not direct eye-contact, but when asking answering a question they would do overt 'thinking eyes', when asking questions, they would do overt 'i'm puzzled' eyes. I don't see why these little changes couldn't also apply to laughing, although I have to say, it does sound like in your particular scenario she might have been forcing it a little. But you never know, it might have been to try and smooth the conversation; false laughter is pretty common in conversation, perhaps you just noticed it more because you were already ticked off and suspicious about her sincerity.

And finally some people deliberately change their voice. I do; I speak slightly higher pitched in Japanese; I don't think its forced, I think for girls Japanese always does generally sound slightly higher than English and if I use my rounded, deeper-pitched 'english voice' in Japanese (I have a certain accent that exacerbates the trait), well *ahem* I've been told it's kind of sexy. Amusing in the right situation, maybe, but highly embarrassing if people can't hear your words, only the tone and you're talking to the 7-11 cashier. Or someone else's man.

I say I love Tokyo and Japan without really knowing either one. Though I was stationed there and have returned as a tourist, unless you live there, one can't really see what it all entails. I'm going back there in 33 days and am ecstatic about it. But I'm going there as a tourist. I will only see the very surface. Yes, there are dark spots-darker than many can imagine. Perhaps it's the way of life there that makes people the way they are. Being subject to having to adhere to the norm would make many explode after some time. Yes, that's one of the darker sides of that society. But some of the good things are the cleanliness of the streets, and the polite courtesy towards tourists. I know it's a depressing city and many people commit suicide in Japan, but Tokyo is a great place to go see a megalopolis in action. Just a small opinion on my part.

i have an idea about disliking a place....i think it depends on what have you experianced before the visit. more you have the less you will be effected by the new surroundings in a negative way.
ive been to some 13 countries. and only 2 times ive had culture shock.
first one was in egypt. having guards with ak-47 around was new..also since in my home country we maybe have some 10 black people, then seeing so many at once all trying to sell you stuff was rather new and actually annoying after a while.
second one was in russia, mosscow were stuff is simply big. i was like 14 walking around the streets at night. that was unpleasant and i really thought i was gonna get killed. but then the next winter morning everything was again so beautiful that you forgot about the dark side.

and so. after those 2 radical experiances ive never had any culture shock problems. went to the uk this summer and i allready was used to the huge cities and mixed races with different cultures.

so all thats left is japan. throw at me what you can! MUAHAHAHA :cool: