|
Quote:
Just curious, and this is a question for MMM also: have you ever studied race relations? It doesn't matter for which country. Seriously, I'm not trying to put you down, not trying to say "WELL I HAVE SO OMG I'M SMARTER THAN YOU." I'm just curious. If not, then I really suggest that you do. It's amazing how subtle racism has become. (The most prominent example is the experiment with black children and dolls, and asking them which dolls are prettier, and them replying the white ones.) Like I said before, it's something that effects every nation that has any type of media. Someone recounted to me a story of them being in Japan and seeing a black girl be called a slave in an argument. I personally feel that people in Japan know who black people are - know black peoples history. I think that in the past, Japanese people have taken some Western ideas of black people that are inherently racist. That's really all I'm saying. Also, I think it's just a little silly to try and disprove the idea of "white skin is better than dark skin" as being racist. It's fine to like white skin and say that it is just as beautiful to dark skin. Saying that it's better is racist. The definition of racism. I'm a little upset at myself that I've been arguing that basic point for so long. |
People just like too much to assume things are rascist. It's pretty ridiculous imo...........just thought I'd say :)
|
People just like too much to assume things are rascist. It's pretty ridiculous imo...........just thought I'd say :)
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
You're the racist one. |
Quote:
|
BAHAHA. Everybody's a little bit racist =)
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If a black person in New York likes to eat Chinese food, it doesn't mean he hates Koreans. |
Quote:
Regardless, our skin color has little to do with the social behaviour of Japan; a country that has never suffered problems like American, Europe or Australia when it comes to racism (race racism, not social class racism). |
Quote:
Minorities don't "hold most of the cards" here in New Zealand. That's crap... and I'd challenge you to the Australian position to. Just speak for yourself please. |
Quote:
I notice you haven't even addressed the point I've made. But I'll address yours -Yes I have studied race relations. I don't think there's a high school student who hasn't studied race relations in New Zealand. -Your comment on the subtlety of racism is valid... but you have to be able to connect racism to the phenomena in question. YOU HAVE FAILED TO DO SO. The only thing you've been able to do is suggest a connection. But please... back yourself up or don't comment at all. I mean I'm aware of the subtle forms racism can take... but unless you can make such connections then you just sound like a raving lunatic who blames racism for everything. -I too assume that Japan is aware of the black community in the United States, how it came about, and the at times uneasy relationship between ethnic groups in various places. Again you haven't made any connection between portrayal of black people in the Japanese media and their perceptions of beauty. Just implied that one exists. -MMM dealt with your final point with the carrots/apples analogy. (Not that he hasn't dealt with the other points you made... I just prefer to counter differently) Bottom line is that we're willing to listen to you if you can give us a good reason to. But at the moment your explanation simply doesn't wash. I'm not qualified to say this but I do remember a thread on here in which it was revealed (by a respected forum member who has intimate knowledge of Japan) that Japanese people tend to not even compare themselves with those of other races when it comes to beauty. |
Mercedesjin- Why is it racist if someone is not attracted to black people? I don's really see that as racist at all. I personally am not much of a fan of blonde haired women. I'm just not as attracted to blonde hair as I am of other hair colors. Now I'm sure you of all people could find me racists somewhere in this comment becuase you are very good at pulling out the most ridiculous reasons why people are "racist". But with my comment about blondes that doesnt make me like blonde girls any less just becuase im not as attracted to them. So my basic point is since when did not being attracted to a certain look make you racist.
And i know this is a very simplistic post, especially after what you guys have been talking about. I just found all these new posts so sorry if this is a step backwards. |
Quote:
Read his posts earlier if you want explanation. |
Quote:
Let's say "Here is my list of turn-ons" short....fine glasses....fine sporty fashion.....fine fair skin......ALARM! ALARM! RACISM!" I would say I don't think that is fair. Why are some qualities I find attractive safe, and others racism? I think the response would be "that's internalized racism...there is a REASON you prefer fair skin, and that is because the media has taught you that dark skin is bad". I don't like this argument for two reasons. 1) It assumes that the human brain is stupid and is not savvy enough to filter and organize the information it is given and 2) it doesn't allow preference without being racist. This goes back to the argument about Japanese women and skin tone. Japanese women have tried to keep their skin fair before the existence of black people was even known to Japanese, and yet, if a woman today in Japan uses a parasol in the sun there is the argument that because of "internalized racism" she is unconsciously trying to avoid turning into a black person. I think that argument is insane, frankly. Again, it allows for no free will and it ignores the powerful influences of fashion and tradition. Considering we all share pretty much the same media, why would there be women that DO try and get tan, and why are there men that are attracted to them? Again, here is where "internalized racism" falls a bit flat. |
Quote:
And thank you MMM you said more clearly what I was trying to get at. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Blaming the media for this internalized racism we are "suffering" from is as retarded as it gets. Blame a thousand years of socialization. Totaly was the media that infused the minds of feudal europe with this pale nonsense.
What a paradox we are facing, people want us to live in a society that doesn't exist, if we don't live in their little imaginary world, we are racist. And just for the record, I'm a racist, since i prefer straigth hair and ligther skin. I sure fit nicely in to the group that lynched people because of their skin colour, rigth? |
Quote:
|
About the racism due to skin color preference;
I said, and I think I have a nailed point, it isn't racism unless it leads to social exclusion. I mean, I have my preferences, but it isn't racism. What you guys may not realize is how far this "personal preference" can go. For example, a requirement for a woman to get a job at Air Asia or Thai Airways is she is "well groomed". You'll never find a dark skinned woman workin as a flight attendandt for those airlines, as they believe the sexual preferance of dark skin is not a turn-on for most men, and thus might put them off the airline. Thus, this preference of skin color is leading to social exclusion in these countries, which is why it is racism. |
Quote:
When it comes to making comments and backing them up, I'm working from personal experience, and I think I've said it before. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear, and I'm sorry if that's not valid enough for this forum. (Though I will say, personal experiences are what bring about issues of race relations and theories.) Sorry, I didn't read MMM's post. Maybe when I don't feel as uncomfortable/upset, I'll check it out. |
If a thread on an Internet forum makes you this upset, Mercedesjin, you might want to reconsider moving to Japan for any length of time.
|
Quote:
I'm not embarrassed to say that I, on a forum on the Internet, feel upset because of racism. I'm sorry that you seem to think I should. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
I don't think that all Japanese people are racist. At least, I hope not. I do think that racism can be found where ever I go, though, and I sure as hell plan on doing or saying something about it where ever I go. Which is partially why I want to travel so much. I want to give fair representation of black women to different parts of the world. That's all. |
I have been nothing but forthcoming and have never been sarcastic on any of my posts in this thread.
I am serious. If you get this upset on the Internet, I would reconsider moving to Japan. Maybe you forgot the story I told you last week about the girl I knew in Japan who literally lost touch with reality and her mother had to come to Japan to pick her up and take her home. And I'll be frank, you have been saying things, but you haven't responded much to what people are saying. You even quit reading a post of mine because you didn't like a comment I said. I am looking forward to your responses to some of the posts that have come up since you last came on. |
Quote:
Quote:
Either you are calling me a racist, which I already asked you not to do, or you are contradicting yourself, or both. If I am a racist, then everyone in the world is racist. I look forward to your response. |
Quote:
I quit reading a post of yours because - like I said - I got upset, and thought it wasn't worth continuing that particular discussion since it really is just a forum. It gets emotionally tiring, emotionally straining after a while to talk to people about my race, gender, etc. - to argue with people about my race, gender, etc. That's why I'm not responding. Even now, I feel uncomfortable having to defend myself, even though it's just a thread. I'm assuming you're white and male, else you might be able to understand and relate to that. I've also said before that I want to go to Japan to spread fair representation, as well as any other country I go to. That I get upset is just a way of showing that I'm passionate about this issue. |
Quote:
I have never regulated someones ability to discuss a topic on these forums by what their race and gender were (unless it was something that was a question to a Japanese native, but even then there are people non-Japanese qualified to answer many questions). You quit reading that post of mine, and in my opinion that was an error on your part. I responded to all of your points up to that time in that post. |
50% of crime is committed by a certain sub group of society: if that is a factual statement it is by no means racist. Maybe that sub-group in fact comprises 90% of the society referred to. If that sub-group comprises only 20% or so of the society, there is a problem that needs to be addressed.
A person you have never met must be racist because he has (insert colour of your choice here) skin. All people of that colour are racists. Is this a racist comment? Does a large proportion of the Japanese population consider fair skin to be more attractive than dark? Sure - what of it? If you can't tell the difference between aesthetics and racism, that's a problem you are inflicting on others. I have too often seen people behave in an offensive fashion toward others, and scream "racist, sexist, homophobe et al" when their victims rise to the bait, to be influenced by random accusations of racism. (or sexism, or homophobia, or ....) |
Quote:
And why do you say "of color", as if it is white people Vs. the rest of the world? You're starting to sound more racist than any of us "whites" here are... perhaps you should try and forget what color we all are for a minute, and just focus on the principles behind situations from an unbiased perspective. |
Quote:
It is not simply aesthetics. Re-read. |
I have read it, Tenchu, and with care.
The question raised by the first post refers to the reason why Japanese people consider it desirable to keep their OWN skins from becoming tanned. In answer to that question, it IS about aesthetics for the Japanese people I have met - both from the point of visual impact and from the issue of being careless with one's body in over-exposing it to the sun - carelessness of one's own person is deemed unseemly.) Other posts, irrelevant to that question, in this thread were also referred to ... to wit I have too often seen people behave in an offensive fashion toward others, and scream "racist, sexist, homophobe et al" when their victims rise to the bait, to be influenced by random accusations of racism. (or sexism, or homophobia, or ....) and the relevance of the balance of my post to those other issues was confirmed by your own post, immediately following mine: quote: What does your skin color have anything to do with this? Are you trying to suggest white people never have problems with racism? |
Yes, you can say the desire to keep skin white is a personal thing, and it is, and there is nothing wrong with that.
If you had read the whole thread, however, you would have read where I said darker skinned people have more trouble getting upper class jobs with frequent social contact, such as on an airline or in an expensive beauty shop, because darker skin is undesirable. What this means is that this trend is leading to social exclusion of certain people; often where people are born with darker skin, and it isn't their fault they are so "ugly". Also, in Aisa, dark skin is often thought to represent social class, and those with the darker skin are thought to be lower class and poor and dirty people. There is something wrong with this, also. |
Tenchu: As to that, I will agree that there a sections (and some influential sections) of Japanese society which are racist - the position of the Ainu people being a major issue. Had this thread been initiated along the lines of "Racism in Japan", I would have addressed those matters.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
There's a clear difference between that and "I prefer fair/dark whatever skin" Race is more than just skin colour |
Quote:
Unless your use of the term "black people" is unconventional. Also there is a difference between not being attracted to something (exclusion) and preferring something. |
Quote:
But I'm not going to get into that here. Let's just agree to disagree on this one eh Tenchu and let the other discussion flow. |
Quote:
Please, just put any bad feelings or annoyance or anything negative aside for a second and just open your mind and listen to what I'm saying. I'm black. You're white. I'm talking to you about my race, when I've been discriminated against in history and most certainly in this lifetime. I've suffered internalized racism. And I'm telling you that I feel uncomfortable because of that. Tenchu: I'm glad you're in Thailand and having that experience. If you hadn't, perhaps you wouldn't be able to relate to what I'm trying to express right now. I most certainly do think that white people can suffer racism. I live on an island of mostly African diaspora. There are very few white people. I've seen them discriminated against countless times. My own father has been extremely racist towards white people. I've had white friends tell me they feel uncomfortable walking down the street. It's a pain that people can share because we're all human beings. I don't think this is something only black people feel. No one likes to be alienated, no one likes to feel oppressed. It's only because we were on the topic of "saying white skin is more beautiful than black skin" that I was so strongly defending the black perspective. I can't forget what color I am, just like you can't forget you're white in Thailand. It's because society is alienating us. I won't bring up race until I see racism, as I won't bring up gender or sexuality unless I see sexism or homophobia. I personally feel that yes, having discussions like these does just separate us as people more, because we have to make it obvious that I am black and you are white. But how else can we stand up for ourselves? We have to talk about it. |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 08:25 AM. |