Numbers...
 

I've recently purchased the Rosetta Stone program for learning Japanese. I did this after much deliberation [after all, it did cost 400 US$ and I'm operating on a student's income], and now find myself enjoying the experience.

However, I do have some issues. I'm still in the beginning stages, and I've come across the section that teaches the numbers 1-6. My question is: what is the significance of the different endings to the numbers? Or, in other words, when do I use the different endings?

There seemed to be a particularly large number of different endings for "san" [3], including: San, Sanko, Sandai, Sanmai, Sansatsu, Sanbiki, and Sanbon.

I know that with the Rosetta Stone program you're supposed to learn by example, but I just can't get past this. Thanks in advance for any help you may offer!

The significance is greater than what anyone will tell you, trust me.

In English and many other languages, you count just about anything the same way.

5 apples, 5 pensils, 5 cars, etc...

In Japanese, this doen't work. You need to use the counter to count anything, and the counters change depending on what you're counting.

Before I go on, let me ask if you can read hiragana. I hate to explain things using romaji.

I wouldn't be too worried. Just use generics (sino-japanese + ko or japanese-numbering) for anything you are not sure off and remember the common ones like counter for books and tv sets.

A little bit... As I said, I'm just starting out. If you do write in hiragana, I should be able to translate though.

Good. But do rememebr that heavy use of romaji at the beginning stage will get you hooked on it and this will eventually slow down your Japanese learning process. Japanese people think everything in terms of syllables.

I'll explain how to use the counters that you listed in your first post.

3（さん）: Number 3. Unlike in English, you cannot place a noun directly after it. Same goes with any number, not just 3.

Basic Format: (number) + (counter) + の + (noun)

こ : こ is the counter than can be used for many small countable objects if they aren't too long or thin in physical shape.

3このりんご= 3 apples.　3このけしごむ= 3 rubbers.　3このキャンディー=3 candies.

だい: だい is for counting machines, appliances, cars, etc.

3だいのくるま= 3 cars.　2だいのれいぞうこ= 2 refrigerators.　8だいのミシン= 8 sawing machines.

まい　： counter for thin objects.

4まいのかみ= 4 sheets of paper.　8まいのタオル= 8 towels.　2まいのピザ= 2 whole pizzas.

さつ ： counter for books, magazines, notebooks, etc.

1さつのほん= a book.　6さつのノート= 6 notebooks.　3さつのざっし= 3 magazines.

ひき：　counter for small animals. Note the pronounciation changes according to the number preceding it.

1ぴき（いっぴき）のねこ= a cat. "Piki" with numbers 1, 6, 8, 10, 20, 30, etc.

4ひきのいぬ= 4 dogs. "Hiki" with 2, 4, 5, 7 and 9

3びきのかえる= 3 frogs. "Biki" with 3.

ほん：　counter for long, stick-type objects. Like ひき, the pronunciation changes according to the number preceding it.

１ぽん（いっぽん）のバナナ= a banana. "Pon" with numbers 1, 6, 8, 10, 20, 30, etc.

4ほんのポッキー= 4 Pocky sticks. "Hon" with 2, 4, 5, 7 and 9

3ぼんのえんぴつ= 3 pencils. "Bon" with 3.
_______________________

There are countless other counters in Japanese. But you need to learn basic sentence structures and build a good vocabulary before worring about them.

Thank you very much sir! And yes, I plan on memorizing all of Hiragana and Katakana after the end of my current lesson. [Not long to go.] It really is surprising how difficult it is to find a good Hiragana/Katakana chart! Took me nearly two hours to find a good one!

Sublymomanl, if it helps think that even in English you use counter...just not 100% of the times.
Think about liquids like water, wine and so on. You can say you bought some water, but if you need to specify the quantity you need to use a counter such as: 2 bottles, 2 glasses, 1 liter...and so on. The difference is that in Japanese the counter is used 100% of the times you use a number.
Getting a complete list of counters for us students is, in my opinion, close to impossible since there are so many.

But about counters I have a question too for the native speakers or who knows Japanese.
つ can be considered a counter and works with the 訓読み, but for small numbers. What happens for bigger numbers? I mean, it is ok to say 一つの質問,
but what about 20, 32 or 40? I guess saying 試験には三十二つの質問があります would be considered a mistake. I was taught for small things that don't have a real counter I can use 個, but not sure if it works for abstract nouns too.

Does this differ for a slice of pizza or is that still まい?

ピザの三角を残して下さい？　　:p

Careful speakers do not count slices (pieces) of pizza with まい.
You would use the counter 切れ（きれ）.

If you still haven't learned your kana I recommend Heisig's book. I learned both hiragana and katakana in less than 3 hours (1 hour per day). You can download it online or buy it from a site like Amazon, much like Rosetta Stone :eek:

Sorry to bust your bubble @the thread starter, but well... Rosetta Stone sort of sucks for learning japanese unfortunately. If you still wanted it anyway you should have just pirated it, it's not worth the money.. But hey, if you think it really works for you, then go with it but it doesn't have a very good rep on these forums.

:vsign:

つ is not considered to be a counter in the strictest sense of the word. It just "happens" to be the last syllable of numbers 1 thru 9. With "real" counters, you should be able to use it for 0 to infinity.

We don't say 試験には三十二つの質問があります. The largest number you can use つ with is 9. There is no exception to this.
The proper counter for 質問 is 問. Casually, some people use 個 and make themselves sound like 9-year-olds counting candies. ;)

「試験には質問が３２問あります。」 would be the most natural way to say this.

「試験には３２問の質問があります。」 is not totally incorrect but not nearly as natural as the sentence above.

"Number + counter" is usually placed immediately in front of the verb when used in a phrase containing a verb.　

thank you this thread is quite helpful :)

I was taught to use ひとつ
ふたつ
みっつ
よっつ
いっつ
むっつ
ななつ
やっつ
ここのつ
とお
for 1-10 small roundish objects such as apples or eggs, not こ

What's that all about?

Also, one of the TAs from Tokyo said that her generation doesn't really commonly use any counters except the general counters and ひき／ぴき／びきfor small animals because "it would be cruel to refer to them as anything else."

Also, I don't agree with the statement that Rosetta Stone sucks for learning Japanese. It might for some people, but most of the reactions on this forum to it are based on using the first chapter. I think it sucks at teaching Kana and Kanji (because it pretty much doesn't teach them at all) but many people can benefit from visual learning techniques and examples. I think it would be best to use it in conjunction with traditional classes.

Could be called the easy way out, maybe you could use it if you didnt know the counter for something, but its no excuse for not learning them.

Cannot comment on Rosetta Stone because I've never used it, but nothing can replace AJATT.

What's that? [the AJATT thing]

As far as Rosetta Stone goes, I'm having a wonderful time with it. I was able to get it substantially cheaper than I thought would. My brother bought it for me, and just mailed me back some of my money! [Naturally, it was a check.] Apparently he was able to get a half-off student discount! [He's a university student.] I do think the 400 big ones is a ridiculous price, but it is all I can do. My grades are theoretically good enough for me to take Japanese at the local university, but my class schedule is jam-packed. In fact, I'm going to have to take summer school so I can fit it in my Senior year. So, for now, it's all I've got.

I suppose I could always try to make friends with Miho.... [Her family just moved in from Japan].... but I think that would have to wait until I can form basic sentences.... [Though it's never a bad time to make friends....]

AJATT? google is your friend..

Why do you have to wait make friends with someone? just go for it.

How far are you into Rosetta? What can you "do"? (for lack of better words)

What other language rescources have you used to compare it with?

All those small つs are optional (and I don't use them), except いっつ does not look familiar to me. It should be いつつ（五つ）.

I've only completed the first "unit" in "level 1 Japanese". This is where I plan to take a stop so I can learn all the hiragana/katakana.

As for what I can "do"... Not a whole lot. I can ask basic questions [e.g. "what is that?", "who is eating", "is the horse running?"], I can make statements of fact [e.g. "he is wearing a hat on his head"] and statements of... falseness [e.g. "he's not wearing a shirt"]. I can also answer basic questions. I can count to six, know about eight colors, know some basic items and articles of clothing, refer to myself [e.g. "I'm a cop"], and some other baiscs. As if these things were not a clue, the unit is entitled "Language Basics".

Really haven't compared it with much of anything. My eldest brother used to have one of those "Japanese for Dummies" books, which, naturally, was terrible, but that's it. Compared to my learning speed in Latin though, this goes a bit quicker [Latin is HARD].

Problem is, you would never say most of those things in real life... That and, rosetta stone teaches you the way a foreigner would say things, and most of the stuff on there, I don't believe sounds close to the way a native person would say it. It also teaches you to use anata, boku, watashi and other types of I and You all the time, but in reality, words like I and You are probably the least said in japanese, thats not to say they aren't said, they just aren't used very often because one is usually able to tell who the other person is speaking about through context.

Imo, Rosetta Stone teaches you japanese the wrong way. When I tried it, I completed unit 1 and most of 2. One thing I noticed is that they only used the -te forum of every verb. Which is defiantly not what you would use in every sentence you make (Which is what rosetta stone taught you)

Although, I only went that far and don't know much more about it. I think Rosetta Stone has some kind of satisfaction guarantee, if they do, I would really recommend getting your money back, because there are much better ways to learn japanese available for free online.

To list a few...
-AJATT (As Shad0w suggested)
-Tae Kim's Japanese guide to Japanese grammar (Very good Japanese grammar guide, covers a lot of topics)
-Reviewing The Kanji (Mainly for people with the RTK books, but you don't need them, this can help you memorize the meanings of over 2000 Kanji)
-Anki (The best flash card program, using spaced repitition, which is proved to work, you can use it for anything from Vocabulary to Grammar to Kanji)


:vsign:

You're still basing your perceptions off of the first two units though. I'm sure they teach you other forms in later units, and when you learn Japanese you always learn "I" and "you" even though you don't use them very often, because that's the easiest way to learn a language. Same thing with the foreigner thing, whenever you learn any language you're always going to sound like a foreigner at the beginning.

Uhh Sorry but, teaching you to say everything using I and You and Her and Him is absolutly the wrong way to learn. Although it may seem eaiser now, in the long run it will harm you. And I am almost positive that Rosetta Stone will never teach you to say anything the way a native would say it. The way Rosetta Stone teaches is not good for learning JP. It doesn't explain any grammer rules at all. Your suppose to just grasp it, but it just doesn't happen like that with japanese. There is no 'easy way out' when learning japanese. If you can't deal with that, then japanese isn't for you.

Not only does it not teach grammer correctly, it doesn't teach writing correctly either. Imo, the only thing japanese rosetta stone is good for is vocabulary.

Rosetta Stone works great for langs like Spanish, but it's a whole different story with japanese. Rosetta stone just made up a template then made an attempt to integrate every single language into it.

:vsign:

Yep, and you're still basing your entire perception off of the first two units. And yes, there's absolutely no reason why you should ever learn how to say I and You which is why there are no words for them in Japanese. Oh wait.

I am not saying that it's wrong to be taught I and You, I'm saying Rosetta Stone teaches them WRONG.

Japanese counter word - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Be confused!

Clicking through rosetta stone is not a good way to learn japanese alone. You should definitely get some kanji, grammar etc. learning books. As you encounter new things in rosetta stone, look it up in your books to get a greater understanding of what you are doing. And look up and write down all the kanji you encounter!

Rosetta stone is great, but you need something to supliment your learning, their "magic" way does not work alone even though they say it will

In dougbrowne's defence, the way pronouns are used in Japanese is totally different from most other languages. They are avoided if possible (other wise you sound very rude and egoistic) during everyday speech but with English, it would be grammatically incorrect to avoid them.

What a JP learner should be taught is not to use pronouns when it is obvious and to learn I わたしfor starters. That's it. If they want to say YOU, they should use the person's name 〇〇さん and if they want to use he/she, they should use その人・方、あの人・方. They shouldn't even need to know 2nd and 3rd person pronouns at the start because all that does is offend people.

I agree, I was just pointing out that it's not a good idea to claim that a massive program is doing something wrong based on the first two units of it. It could very well completely ditch the "I" and "You" in a later part. It's just easiest for English speakers to learn these pronouns first because it helps us form and understand sentences easier.

Sorry for the double post, but I have a number related question.

Could someone tell me if I am saying these numbers correctly in Hiragana?

3,333,333 = さんびゃくさんじゅうさんまんさんぜんさんびゃくさん さ
3,291,910 = さんびゃくにじゅうきゅうまにちせんきゅうひゃくじゅ う


ありがとう！

I'm sure you got it write but you didn't type it properly.

3,333,333 = 三百三十三万（さんびゃくさんじゅうさんまん）　三千 三百三十三（さんぜんさんびゃくさんじゅうさん）
3,291,910 = 三百二十九万（さんびゃくにじゅうきゅうまん）　千九 百十（せんきゅうひゃくじゅう）

Ack, I need practice typing those ._.

Thank you for showing me =)