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-   -   How to put kanji in your writing. (https://www.japanforum.com/forum/japanese-language-help/26768-how-put-kanji-your-writing.html)

Noka 07-26-2009 05:52 PM

How to put kanji in your writing.
 
I don't understand how the whole kanji thing works... so I need a quick explanation or reassurance.

Like 'kuuki' (空気) for example.

I understand why the second kanji is there since it means 'mood.' But.. why is that first one there? Is all kanji written in resemblance to the Japanese word? I wouldn't know since I don't know what the first kanji means yet. X3 *learning her kanji from MyJapaneseCoach DS)

MMM 07-26-2009 05:54 PM

The first one means "air, sky , open space"

air + mood = atmosphere.

Noka 07-26-2009 05:56 PM

Oh, so kanji is written in occurrence to the meaning of the word and the kanji. ^^

I was confused for a moment, huge writing systems with complicated letters frazzle my mind. l 3;

komitsuki 07-26-2009 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noka (Post 752662)
I was confused for a moment, huge writing systems with complicated letters frazzle my mind. l 3;

There isn't much to be confused about kanji when people are very accustomed to Greco-Latin prefixes and suffixes; the closest analogy of kanji to English speakers.

Noka 07-26-2009 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by komitsuki (Post 752667)
There isn't much to be confused about kanji when people are very accustomed to Greco-Latin prefixes and suffixes; the closest analogy of kanji to English speakers.

Right.. just that I'm a very ditzy person, when I see or hear something that only looks/sounds complicated, I get dizzy in the head. X3;

jesselt 07-26-2009 06:16 PM

"Oh, so kanji is written in occurrence to the meaning of the word and the kanji. ^^"

Err... Not always.

人口 (Person, Mouth) = Population
来日 (Next, Day/Sun) = Arrival in Japan

Noka 07-26-2009 06:18 PM

Oh yeah.. there isn't huh? Didn't think a lot before I posted.. sorry. ^^;

But, there are some strange kanji combinations... I've seen them on my DS game, thanks for reminding me. I'll make sure to memorize them though!

KyleGoetz 07-26-2009 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noka (Post 752659)
I don't understand how the whole kanji thing works... so I need a quick explanation or reassurance.

Like 'kuuki' (空気) for example.

I understand why the second kanji is there since it means 'mood.' But.. why is that first one there? Is all kanji written in resemblance to the Japanese word? I wouldn't know since I don't know what the first kanji means yet. X3 *learning her kanji from MyJapaneseCoach DS)

Well crap. I had a very long, detailed explanation here but my browser crashed and I lost the entire thing and I don't have time to write it all again. Sorry.

However, Noka, being a native English speaker, you are already familiar with how Kanji work: Greek prefixes and suffixes.

No doubt you've seen words like "dinosaur" or "platypus" or "arachnophobia" or "democracy." Let me point out how these words work:

dinosaur = dino (terrible) + saurus (lizard) = terrible lizard
platypus = platys (flat) + pous (foot) = flat foot (duckbilled platypus has flat feet)
arachnophobia = arachno (spider) + phobos (fear) = fear of spiders
democracy = demos (people) + kratos (rule) = ruling by the people

See how it works? In English, we take Greek roots and combine them to make new English words. In the same way, most of the time you encounter multiple kanji together as one word, it will be in this same way: to take multiple Chinese characters (kanji) and make a new Japanese word (or borrow a Chinese word).

There are a few special differences, though:
1. pronunciation changes more drastically in the Japanese example than English example. For example, 分 is "wa" by itself but becomes "bun" in combination with others.

2. Not all the time does pronunciation when combined with kanji change (there are hintsin teh word, though, to clue you in). FOr example, in 使い分け, the 分 remains "wa" even though it's combined in a new word. The clue is that there are hiragana in the word, too. However, if you happen to see 自分, you can almost safely assume that it will have the "new" pronunciation of "bun" there with it.

3. There is a concept called "ateji," where kanji are used not for meaning but just for sound. A famous ateji is 寿司 (sushi), where neither kanji has any meaning related to food at all (life span + administration).

Don't worry about #3 at all for now, and you'll come to understand #1 and #2 more as you study. You don't need to know all this now to become a successful speaker. This is just an introduction so you can see how very fascinating this all is.

Plus, I think understanding that seemingly weird practices in one language also occur in your own language helps with learning. Here, the kanji don't seem so scary if your recognize that English already does something similar.

Note for advanced speakers and natives: Yes, I do recognize that kanji and my Greek example are in no way a perfect analogy. :)

Noka 07-26-2009 07:51 PM

Thanks so much KyleGoetz! *hug*
You too MMM, komitsuki, and jesselt. : 3

KyleGoetz 07-27-2009 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesselt (Post 752678)
"Oh, so kanji is written in occurrence to the meaning of the word and the kanji. ^^"

Err... Not always.

人口 (Person, Mouth) = Population
来日 (Next, Day/Sun) = Arrival in Japan

Uh, those actually do reflect the meaning.

You measure population by counting the number of mouths of people there are. In your second example, the kanji mean "to come" and "Japan."

sarasi 07-27-2009 10:09 PM

Why is the first kanji in "空気" there? Because the Japanese word for "air" has always been written like that. It may help you if you simply think of the word "空気" as "air" and don't try to dissect it. Learn kanji compounds together as words, not as separate characters, and don't spend too much time worrying about why those particular kanji together have that meaning, otherwise you will get really bogged down.

jesselt 07-27-2009 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz (Post 753135)
Uh, those actually do reflect the meaning.

You measure population by counting the number of mouths of people there are. In your second example, the kanji mean "to come" and "Japan."

Right, except it only makes sense if you make up an example or try and justify it. No one would ever come to the conclusion that 人口 would mean population if you told them that the first Kanji means person and the second means Mouth. Never.

Tsuruneru 07-27-2009 11:30 PM

私は、ミートボールに襲われた一人の旅行者午前:d

komitsuki 07-28-2009 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsuruneru (Post 753305)
私は、ミートボールに襲われた一人の旅行者午前:d

BTW, that sentence doesn't make any sense.

komitsuki 07-28-2009 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesselt (Post 753301)
No one would ever come to the conclusion that 人口 would mean population if you told them that the first Kanji means person and the second means Mouth. Never.

It makes sense if you associate 口 with its "modern" secondary meaning: an entity that an object would enter.

This is Chinese characters. Most of them have a primary meaning and bunch of secondary meanings.

KyleGoetz 07-28-2009 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesselt (Post 753301)
Right, except it only makes sense if you make up an example or try and justify it. No one would ever come to the conclusion that 人口 would mean population if you told them that the first Kanji means person and the second means Mouth. Never.

But that's not the issue. Someone said 人口 does not reflect the meaning, not that "the meaning is not obvious." I was arguing that it does reflect the meaning. I never once made an argument that it would be obvious to anyone what it meant. You're putting arguments in my mouth that I never made.

Tsuruneru 07-28-2009 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by komitsuki (Post 753311)
BTW, that sentence doesn't make any sense.

Thats kind of the point >_>

sarasi 07-28-2009 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsuruneru (Post 753429)
Thats kind of the point >_>

Sorry, I don't get it either.

As for whether the kanji in 人口 reflect the meaning of "population" or not, that was the point I was trying to make with my above post. Don't worry about whether or not it is logical that that particular combination of kanji should have that particular meaning. Just accept that it does, and move on to the next word you have to learn.

Tsuruneru 07-28-2009 06:50 AM

(I am a traveler who was seized with meatballs) Thats what it says, it was a joke from a random show, but in anther language it wouldn't be as funny. Confusing even.

KyleGoetz 07-28-2009 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsuruneru (Post 753459)
(I am a traveler who was seized with meatballs) Thats what it says, it was a joke from a random show, but in anther language it wouldn't be as funny. Confusing even.

No, it's not that your sentence is silly. It's that it's grammatically incorrect. There's no main verb. And for some reason you've included "a.m." in it.

packetpirate 07-28-2009 02:15 PM

Please, do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop using My Japanese Coach... it's a terrible resource to learn from. The stroke order on a few of the kana is wrong... also, it teaches poor grammar skills as I noticed when after a month or two of learning from it, I tried talking to a friend and he said my Japanese was terrible. You're much better off with a book like Genki... which is what I'm learning from right now. I could send you the e-book if you want, or you can buy it here...

Amazon.com: genki

There are two books and two workbooks.

duo797 07-28-2009 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packetpirate (Post 753563)
Please, do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop using My Japanese Coach... it's a terrible resource to learn from. The stroke order on a few of the kana is wrong... also, it teaches poor grammar skills as I noticed when after a month or two of learning from it, I tried talking to a friend and he said my Japanese was terrible. You're much better off with a book like Genki... which is what I'm learning from right now. I could send you the e-book if you want, or you can buy it here...

Amazon.com: genki

There are two books and two workbooks.

I wouldn't get rid of My Japanese Coach entirely. While I have heard that it is a poor resource for grammar, it can be a good source for vocab. Of course vocab is just as important as grammar, so another study source is good.

komitsuki 07-28-2009 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarasi (Post 753457)
As for whether the kanji in 人口 reflect the meaning of "population" or not, that was the point I was trying to make with my above post.

To be fair, the concept of population had never been in Asia (China, Korea, Japan) because it started as a 19th century Western concept. This reflects some sheer awkwardness with the kanji translation.


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