which is more common/natural
 

in casual speech, is かれら more often used then かれたち?

and is it true that besides けど we have けれども, けれど, けども. do they all mean the same thing, and which should i be using (or are all fine)


also does this 2 sentences mean the same thing:
ゴルフができますか
ゴルフをすることができますか

It depends who is saying it. As a new speaker I would stick with かれたち. かれら sounds a bit rough, and depending on who you are talking to may not be appropriate.

The longer it is, the more formal it is. けど should be fine for your needs now.

ゴルフができますか is fine. I have never heard someone say ゴルフをすることができますか.

I back up what MMM said. I have this strange feeling that teeeechnically you would say something like ピザの食べることができる instead of ピザを, although using を is perfectly acceptable. I always use を, but I just had this feeling like maybe I learned の or が is "more correct" seven years ago in my classes.

Can a native weigh in?

And to build upon the かれら／かれたち issue, 〜ら in general is pretty uniformly more rough than 〜たち as a "pluralizer."

You don't hear gangsters saying オマエたち!

No matter how I try to come up with a good situation, かれたち just sounds... weird.

I honestly cannot think of a normal situation using it. It isn`t wrong, but it carries a different feeling than かれら which I would consider "natural". Even in a more formal situation.

かれたち makes me think of referring to boyfriends...

I agree. I don't think I have ever heard anybody say かれたち..

I completely agree with this.

I don't think I've ever said かれたち in my life. I may have heard it said but you hear many things said if you live half a century. ;)

かれら is the pronoun I would use if I had to use a pronoun. However,　I'd much rather act like a Japanese and use あの人たち or　～～さんたち.

In Japan, you will hear かれら most often in the English classes in junior high and high schools when they have to translate the word "they" into Japanese.

We don't say ピザの食べることができる in any situation. 　が is also incorrect. It's ピザを.

However, you can say in a relative clause:
ピザを食べることのできる店 　
The の here is preferred over が.


　　

sry i cant catch up, does ピザを食べることのできる店 mean the can-eat-pizza store? and what would that actually mean

anyway about できる, can i use わたしはできません to mean something like i cant do this because im not allowed, or is わたしはできません only restricted to mean that i cant do this because im not capable of doing it.

Generally I think できる／できない is used for things you are not capable of doing. For things you are not allowed to do 〜してはいけません is more commonly used.

and for your first question.. it translates best to "A shop where one can eat pizza." I believe.

が and の are interchangeable in a modifying clause. の sounds softer, and thus is often (always?) preferred as "nicer" Japanese.

For example, "the store I went to" can be either (if you actually use a pronoun) 私が行った店 or 私の行った店.

Similarly,
私の食べたピザ
私が食べたピザ
are both "the pizza I ate"

Also, thanks Sashimister for clearing up my confusion! Like I said, I would never use anything other than を there, but there was just something in the back of my mind telling me that I was taught it's OK but not the best (like how you can say ピザを食べたい even though ピザが食べたい is "textbook Japanese").

Glad to see I was wrong and using proper Japanese all along for that construction.

thanks all for the insight! i'l try to use の instead of が in a modifying clause in the future

This is something that came out in another thread and that I pointed out asking for a confirmation from a native speaker, but I guess no one ever noticed it LOL.
I assume you know (and if not you will know it now) that there is a conjugation to make potential forms of verbs like 行く=go and 行ける=can go. This way you can avoid using the form ことができる. できる itself is the potential form of a verb which is the verb to do する.
So theorically it wouldn't make much sense say 。。。することができる being する and できる the same verb. Yet if you google it, you will find many milions of those forms used in the web....thus not sure what to think. I personally try to avoid using することができる.

heys i wasn't aware of this form of conjugation. does this apply to all verbs, and how exactly is it done?

Yes it can be done to all verbs.

most are pretty straightforward like

行く＝行ける、買う＝買える、飲む＝飲める

just look at your hiragana chart and change the verb ending to the え sound and add る

a little caution. many verbs that end in る are conjugated like this...
食べる＝食べられる、変える＝変えられる

but some verbs that end in　る also simply just conjugate to the え sound plus る like 帰る＝帰れる how does one tell the difference between which verbs in dictionary form that end in る　use the え pattern and which use the られる　pattern...？ I dunno.. I would always just pay attention to the past tense of verbs .. you can tell that 食べる changes to 食べられる because the past tense of 食べる is 食べた.. whereas, you know that 　帰る is 帰れる, because the past tense is 帰った。

Or even you can look at the ます form of the verbs to know.. 食べる＝食べます
帰る＝帰ります。

It might seem confusing now, but with the right amount of memorizing and practicing and it will be nothing to you in no time.

I do not know where you are at right now but if you are a beginner, i suggest when you learn a new verb concentrate on its present tense polite forms, past tense conjugation in both polite and plain forms, negative conjugation in both plain and polite, てーform (request form), and potential form (what we are talking about)

To simplify what RickOShay said, there are two types of verbs. Ichidan and godan.

Ichidan verbs are ones that drop る and add ます in polite non-past. 食べます、止めます, etc. Every ichidan ends with /eru/, but not every verb ending in /eru/ is ichidan.

Godan verbs are everything else except する／来る (the two verbs considered irregular most of the time). You can think of them as the ones that drop and add /imasu/ to the stem for polite non-past. 飲みます、作ります, etc.

For the potential form of ichidan verbs, drop る and add られる. For ichidan verbs, you change the stem's ending to /e/ and add る.

Examples:
ichidan
食べるー＞食べられる
止めるー＞止められる
godan
飲むー＞飲める
作るー＞作れる
irregular
するー＞できる
来るー＞来（こ）られる

I'd suggest reading Tae Kim's guide (or a textbook, really) to get a better explanation than we are willing to type here. It's not like it's an esoteric thing that isn't explained in every Japanese textbook on the planet.

And learn the terms "ichidan" and "godan." It will make it much easier to explain things in the future.

Yeah, I agree. In my first Japanese text book way back when.. it never taught us those terms.. the verbs were simply referred to as るverbs and うverbs. So every time I tried to explain to Japanese people that I had no idea how to conjugate verbs ending in dictionary form る that I was unfamiliar with, they could never understand what I meant. I had to draw it out for them.

BTW.. is there anyway you have heard of to tell which they are for the ones that end in dictionary form る other than through experience？

You've got the guideline really wrong.

Every verb that does not end in /eru/ or /iru/ is definitely a godan verb. Most that end in /eru/ or /iru/ are ichidan verbs. It's not /ru/ verbs, but /eru/ and /iru/ verbs.

For example, 止まる is a godan verb even though it ends in る. On the other hand, 止める is an ichidan verb because it ends in /eru/, and in general, verbs that end in /eru/ are ichidan.

There are exceptions, such as 帰る, which ends in /eru/ but is a godan.

In general, here's what you should be thinking, provided it's not instinctive at this point:
1. Do I know whether this verb is ichidan or godan already? If so, stop. If not, continue to #2.
2. Does it end in /eru/ or /iru/? If no, it is godan. If yes, it's probably ichidan.

Here's a good example of why you have to just memorize some of them:
いる (to exist)->います
いる (to need)->いります

One other thing to note: It's entirely possible natives don't know these terms ichidan and godan. I wouldn't be surprised if Sashimister wasn't aware of this distinction. Since Japanese people don't have to learn the rule, they don't need the terms. It's more of a linguistics thing.

It's like how native English speakers don't (in general) learn certain terms for English (past pluperfect, e.g.), but can just use the rules without being taught them.

cool i've just read through TaeKim's guide. its really good!

anyway just to check, would this be alright: シさんは卒業できる
and is it true that i should avoid using this: シさんは卒業することができる

(also will i be able to change the こと to a の as such: シさんは卒業するのができる)

Where do you find these unusual names? ;)

First two sentences are correct but not the last.

Since when? :confused:

lol i was thinking along the lines of Mr-A, B, C

would シさんは卒業することができる by any way sound weird?


also is it true that の can be used to change a verb into a gerund, if so what modifications must i make to the third sentence valid (3rd sentence: シさんは卒業するのができる)

No, not at all.

You cannot say 卒業するのができる. You can say 卒業することができる.

The verb nominalizer の is used in the following ways.
食べるのが好きです。 I love eating.
勉強するのがきらいです。 I dislike studying.
さくぶんを書くのはむずかしい。 It's hard to write compos.

thanks for the info ^^

anyway in 卒業するのができる (is there a kanji for できる?), is it true that the problem lies with のができる. in other words is it true that this is incorrect as well:
勉強するのができる


also can we use 止める to refer to "parking bicycles", likewise can we use 置く to refer to parking cars. in other words will all of these be acceptable:
あそこに自転車を置かなければなりません
あそこに自転車を止めなければなりません
あそこで車を置かなければなりません
あそこで車を止めなければなりません
if the red に is changed with a で will the 2 sentences above still be valid?



on a side note, do we usually write the なければなりません conjugation with kana or kanji

The problem is the の. Vことができる is a set phrase. You cannot modify it.

Regarding なければならない, there are no kanji to use there. It's always kana. What kanji were you going to try and use? I'm curious.

Well, this isn't my guideline(るverb..ichidan/うverb..godan), I am just saying what was written in my first Japanese text book, and how my teacher (a native) explained it to me.


This is quite useful, I have never noticed it before. But now that I think about it, it is true.　It would have been nice to have told this as a beginner.

ahh but herein lies the confusion I suppose.

lovely words like 蘇る、翻る、覆る、切る、散る、練る、軋る、知る、蹴 る、減る、契る、照る。。

my feeling is there is enough that do not fit the form to make one unsure of oneself sometimes.

You listed very few verbs, relatively speaking. Beyond that, did you notice how each one, if you throw away the kanji part, only is る? This should be a hint to you. If you know how it's written, you can know this type of verb is (maybe always?) going to be godan. Besides, I don't care if you're unsure. If you're chatting with someone, there is no room for unsureness. You just conjugate it based on the probabilities and hope you're right. You can't stop the convo to look up whether it's ichidan or godan. Play the probabilities, man.

My rule is much more accurate than what you were taught. And for what it's worth, Yookoso! teaches what I'm saying.

honestly, this is not an issue for me anymore, and im just trying to point out that the difference between verbs like 寝る and 練る and 減る and 経る might be hard for a new learner to sift through.

I agree with you.

anyway is it common to use 食事をする to mean eat or is 食べる preferred? which of this 2 would be more commonly said:
A) レストランで食事をしました
B) レストランで食べた

I would probably say B if I happened to say that sentence. The first one just seems like too much effort for such mundane information.
But I know 食事 to be a fairly common word too. And I do use it as well...but this a question for a native.....

I've never seen 食事 used with する to make a verb. It's always seen it as something like食事できました、 食事時or 食事代 or just 食事 by itself. I mean, i'm sure you CAN use 食事する, but it doesn't seem to be common.

I did not actually comment on the use of the word.. I just said it was a common word.

But I will have to disagree with you and say that Japanese people do say 食事をする sometimes. But like I said before, this is a question for a native since neither of us can really have any authority over questions like this.

I know you didn't. Sorry, I wrote a short sentence before and it must have looked a bit terse. I also typo-ed I've as it's. *facepalm* I should be banned from the internet after 11pm i swear, all my typing skills go to shot.

Anyway I was just trying to add to the discussion, not trying to be all "HERE IS THE ANSWER RAWR!". I'm just saying in my experience it's much more common to see 食事 ~without~ をする than with. Come to it, maybe that's a written thing? Interesting...

Oh no worries man. I wasn't offended or anything. It is impossible to really tell what anybody's tone is online anyway.

is it more common to use 気が小さい or 気の小さい to describe a timid person?

also is 気がない more commonly used when compared to 気のない when describing an uninterested party

I'm sure you'll get an answer from Sashimister, but I'm gonna try to explain this to see if I grasp the concept myself. Take my answer with a grain of salt. I think in both cases it matters where the phrases are being placed in the sentence. If you're using 気が小さい to modify a noun that's following it (i.e. 気が小さい人) then you should use 気の小さい [気の小さい人]. This isn't required, but I've been told it sounds more natural and it also sounds softer. You can still use 気が小さい and be right, and I imagine it sounds better in certain places, but if it does that's a much more advanced topic than you or I need to be worried about at the moment. The same thing goes for 気がない. If you're using it to describe a word directly following it in the sentence, then say 気のない人.

If you're saying 'That person is timid' or 'I'm uninterested', then you would say あの人は気が小さい。 僕は気がない。 This is how I understand the differentiation, but obviously you should wait for someone much more talented than I to give you a definitive answer.

That was pretty accurate.

thanks for the detailed reply duo =P

anyway i was wondering is 友人 a formal version of 友達. in what situations would i be using the word 友人?

Believe me, this is my third attempt to answer this question. I failed the last two times because exceptions kept coming to mind while writing and the posts got too big and confusing.

The shortest answer will be this. 友人 is more formal than 友達.

When talking about a second friend with your friend, you use 友達.
If you (an 18-year-old) are writing a compo for school about a fiend, use 友人.
If you're introducing a friend to your family or other friends, use 友達.
If you're introducing a friend to someone that isn't so close to you, use 友人.
友人 is usually not even in the vocabulary of a 7-year-old kid.

I'm forcing myself to stop here. Why are you even asking this?;) I'd need about 20 pages to explain this. Have you even started speaking Japanese in complete sentences? If not, don't worry too much about this. This is something you will be learning through lots of reading and speaking and making mistakes.

EDIT: Adding one more line. This is about the classical 訓読み words vs. 音読み words issue.

I agree, at some point you need to put the dictionary and grammar book down for a moment, and just get out and start talking to people. Your best lessons in the long run will be the ones you learn on your own through experience.

I feel that this issue ends up getting resolved by an internal understanding of honne and tatemae, just like issues with keigo, honorifics, etc. get settled.

With time, an understanding of each of these comes.