Katakana<->English words

[akstylish]

I've looked at some examples of katakana-English transitions, and it's rather confusing. For example, coffee in katakana is コーヒー. But if I didn't know it I would've written it as　コピ. Another is veil(ベール）. If I only saw katakana I would've translated it as bell. So what are the rules?

edit: oh I forgot f is pronounced as h in Japanese. Never mind the first example.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by akstylish

I've looked at some examples of katakana-English transitions, and it's rather confusing. For example, coffee in katakana is コーヒー. But if I didn't know it I would've written it as　コピ. Another is veil(ベール）. If I only saw katakana I would've translated it as bell. So what are the rules?

edit: oh I forgot f is pronounced as h in Japanese. Never mind the first example.

Why would you have written "coffee" as something with a "p" sound in it? There aren't any perfect rules, and you just have to get an ear for writing it. In コヒ, for example, the "o" sounds way too short, and the "i" makes virtually no sound. Almost "Ko" followed by the "h" sound.

[BenBullock]

Originally Posted by akstylish

I've looked at some examples of katakana-English transitions, and it's rather confusing. For example, coffee in katakana is コーヒー. But if I didn't know it I would've written it as　コピ. Another is veil(ベール）. If I only saw katakana I would've translated it as bell. So what are the rules?

コーヒー is from Dutch. This is due to Holland being the only nation allowed to trade with the Japanese during the Edo period. If you are interested in the details, Which Japanese words originate from Dutch? - sci.lang.japan Frequently Asked Questions has a long list of other words which come from Dutch.

ベール is probably the closest Japanese can get to "veil", unless the ヴ thing is used, which most people don't pronounce right anyway.

Another link, if you want the details of the rules for transcribing English into Japanese: How do I write an English word in Japanese? - sci.lang.japan Frequently Asked Questions

Originally Posted by akstylish

edit: oh I forgot f is pronounced as h in Japanese. Never mind the first example.

You might occasionally see コフィ in Japan but コーヒー is the established word.

[sarasi]

I'm also wondering why you wanted to use a "p" sound to transcribe "coffee"? コピー is "copy", as you might expect.

For new words coming into Japanese from English, there tends to be more standardisation, but for words that have already come into Japanese, various ways of katakana-ising them were used. Sometimes the katakana seem more based on the English spelling, sometimes more on the pronunciation. Sometimes it seems like the person who decided on the katakana didn't know how to pronounce the English word at all. As above, not all words in katakana came from English- there are plenty from Portuguese, Dutch and German as well (アレルギー is one that came from German, that's why it sounds so different from the English "allergy").

Really for common 外来語 (words that have come into Japanese from other languages), you have to learn them individually, just like you do with other Japanese words, and not assume they all follow the same pattern.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by sarasi

I'm also wondering why you wanted to use a "p" sound to transcribe "coffee"? コピー is "copy", as you might expect.

For new words coming into Japanese from English, there tends to be more standardisation, but for words that have already come into Japanese, various ways of katakana-ising them were used. Sometimes the katakana seem more based on the English spelling, sometimes more on the pronunciation. Sometimes it seems like the person who decided on the katakana didn't know how to pronounce the English word at all. As above, not all words in katakana came from English- there are plenty from Portuguese, Dutch and German as well (アレルギー is one that came from German, that's why it sounds so different from the English "allergy").

Really for common 外来語 (words that have come into Japanese from other languages), you have to learn them individually, just like you do with other Japanese words, and not assume they all follow the same pattern.

I wondered at first whether OP is Korean, because they don't have an "f" sound, and they say "coffee" as something like コッピー.

[akstylish]

Dunno why you're so curious about my translation. f is sort of between p and h, so I thought コピ might be a possibility.　I'm just a beginner and haven't even memorized all the letters.

Originally Posted by BenBullock

Another link, if you want the details of the rules for transcribing English into Japanese: How do I write an English word in Japanese? - sci.lang.japan Frequently Asked Questions

Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by akstylish

Dunno why you're so curious about my translation. f is sort of between p and h, so I thought コピ might be a possibility.　I'm just a beginner and haven't even memorized all the letters.



Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

"f" (Voiceless labiodental fricative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) is much more like "h" (Voiceless glottal fricative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) than "p" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voicele...abial_plosive).

"f" and "h" are both voiceless fricatives. "p" is voiceless, but neither a fricative, nor a labiodental consonant.