translated poem - would like original in Japanese

[Jonas06]

The Japanese monk and founder of the Zen Soto sect, Dogen, wrote the following poem which I desperately would like to see in its original Japanese:

Because the mind is free --
Listening to the rain
Dripping from the eaves,
The drops become
One with me.

Ching-ch'ing's raindrop sound, I believe is the title.

Thank you very much,

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by Jonas06

The Japanese monk and founder of the Zen Soto sect, Dogen, wrote the following poem which I desperately would like to see in its original Japanese:

Because the mind is free --
Listening to the rain
Dripping from the eaves,
The drops become
One with me.

Ching-ch'ing's raindrop sound, I believe is the title.

Thank you very much,

聞くままに　また心なき身にしあれば
おのれなりけり　軒の玉水

[Jonas06]

Thank you for your reply, Sashimister,

As much as I appreciate it, I just want to make sure that you did not translate it into Japanese yourself but actual got the words (characters) from a legitimate source as I plan to use the poem in a rather formal letter. Thus you may understand my pickiness. Where did you get it from? If online please post the url, and if from a book, the title would be tremendous.

One thing that thus far stood out to me is how "mind" got translated from 心 which according to WWWJDIC (Monash) dictionary means "heart; mind; spirit; heart radical." Could you please elaborate on the meaning of this word since the definition given for it seems to imply manifold connotations not belonging to the word "mind" is used in its strict sense. I.e. it seems to go beyond mere mind (if one were to distinguish between mind and body) as something more inclusive. (Again this may seem obvious since the poem deals with no-mind or sunyata, however I would love to hear your input).

Thanks again!

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by Jonas06

Thank you for your reply, Sashimister,

As much as I appreciate it, I just want to make sure that you did not translate it into Japanese yourself but actual got the words (characters) from a legitimate source as I plan to use the poem in a rather formal letter. Thus you may understand my pickiness. Where did you get it from? If online please post the url, and if from a book, the title would be tremendous.

One thing that thus far stood out to me is how "mind" got translated from 心 which according to WWWJDIC (Monash) dictionary means "heart; mind; spirit; heart radical." Could you please elaborate on the meaning of this word since the definition given for it seems to imply manifold connotations not belonging to the word "mind" is used in its strict sense. I.e. it seems to go beyond mere mind (if one were to distinguish between mind and body) as something more inclusive. (Again this may seem obvious since the poem deals with no-mind or sunyata, however I would love to hear your input).

Thanks again!

You could have just googled the Japanese yourself to make sure: 聞くままに また心なき身にしあれば おのれなりけり 軒の玉水 - Google Search (People vastly underestimate the power of Google to help you study a language).

And 心 can mean "mind" as well. Contrast "mind" with "brain."

Just like how when someone says "follow your heart" in English, your heart is not literally what you're obeying, but the more emotive side of your brain.

[MMM]

Rest assured this is the original Japanese (a simple Google search verifies that).

Sashimaster is a native Japanese and is not in the business of back-translating classic Japanese poetry.

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by Jonas06

As much as I appreciate it, I just want to make sure that you did not translate it into Japanese yourself but actual got the words (characters) from a legitimate source as I plan to use the poem in a rather formal letter. Thus you may understand my pickiness. Where did you get it from? If online please post the url, and if from a book, the title would be tremendous.

One thing that thus far stood out to me is how "mind" got translated from 心 which according to WWWJDIC (Monash) dictionary means "heart; mind; spirit; heart radical." Could you please elaborate on the meaning of this word since the definition given for it seems to imply manifold connotations not belonging to the word "mind" is used in its strict sense. I.e. it seems to go beyond mere mind (if one were to distinguish between mind and body) as something more inclusive. (Again this may seem obvious since the poem deals with no-mind or sunyata, however I would love to hear your input).

Unfortunately, I possess neither the intelligence nor the generosity to translate a poem in Modern English into Classical Japanese for a stranger for free. I'm merely a lowly Shinjuku wino.

What I posted is the original by Dougen. If anything, that is guaranteed. We all learn that tanka in high school. However, after 30+ years and 800 gallons of ale, I wasn't able to remember it in its entirety; therefore, I had to google it or rather Yahoo-Japan it.

Yahoo!検索 - ”聞くままに また心なき身にしあれば”

心 means both mind and heart as well as other things such as, feeling, sympathy, attention and mood. It really means anything about a human except for his physical aspects. This is why I always had trouble deciding which word to opt for when studying English as a foreign language.

The 心なき身 means "one's pure mental self without the worldly greed" according to my half-sober brain today. What Dougen is trying to say is that you need to be absorbed in your studies/job to be able to really see and become one with the object.

EDIT: Oops, others beat me to it.

[Jonas06]

Thank you both for your help and reassurance.

By the way, how is the poem written formally? That is, are most poems usually written vertically from right to left? And how is each line divided? Wikipedia states that Haiku's are written in a single vertical line. Is this right?

One more thing. I would like to know more about 心 if you would so indulge me, because as a student of languages and philosophy (though my days of Japanese are far gone) I have a hunch that the character conveys more than the English word "mind." Akin to the example you gave, Sashimister, expressions like "put your heart into it" connotes something more than mere intellectualizing but is a more holistic act of mind and body, without the need to differentiate between the two. So would you say that 心 is something more objective, or that it carries with it subjective dimensions of intentions, resolution, passion, etc.?

If there is a direct correlative in Sanskrit or Pali you know of that would also help. But I am also interested in how 心 is used conventionally as well, apart from philosophical contexts, since I am sure the meaning of the word has changed over time; i.e. the same character in Chinese may have a slightly different connotation.

Thanks

[Jonas06]

Originally Posted by Sashimister

Unfortunately, I possess neither the intelligence nor the generosity to translate a poem in Modern English into Classical Japanese for a stranger for free. I'm merely a lowly Shinjuku wino.

What I posted is the original by Dougen. If anything, that is guaranteed. We all learn that tanka in high school. However, after 30+ years and 800 gallons of ale, I wasn't able to remember it in its entirety; therefore, I had to google it or rather Yahoo-Japan it.

Yahoo!検索 - ”聞くままに また心なき身にしあれば”

心 means both mind and heart as well as other things such as, feeling, sympathy, attention and mood. It really means anything about a human except for his physical aspects. This is why I always had trouble deciding which word to opt for when studying English as a foreign language.

The 心なき身 means "one's pure mental self without the worldly greed" according to my half-sober brain today. What Dougen is trying to say is that you need to be absorbed in your studies/job to be able to really see and become one with the object.

EDIT: Oops, others beat me to it.

Ah yes! I just read your reply before I got a chance to post mine and that helps immensely. 心なき身 is exactly what I was getting it with my example. (BTW how would you transliterate that?). If you or anyone else could follow up any my other queries I would be forever grateful.

While I think you should ease up on the drinking, or quit altogether, it speaks volumes of you that Dougen's tanka has still stayed with you. Blessings.

[Sashimister]

I'll just answer what I can answer quickly for now..

Originally Posted by Jonas06

心なき身 is exactly what I was getting it with my example. (BTW how would you transliterate that?).

That is こころなきみ.

Originally Posted by Jonas06

By the way, how is the poem written formally? That is, are most poems usually written vertically from right to left? And how is each line divided? Wikipedia states that Haiku's are written in a single vertical line. Is this right?

That's right. Haikus are short enough to be written in a single vertical line. Tankas, which are a little longer, are still written the same way as long as the vertical length of the paper allows it. When it doesn't, you divide it into the first 5-7-5 syllables and the last 7-7 syllables.