Electronic Dictionary versus PDA

[DJjapan]

Hello,

First- sorry for the long post! I like to get all the info down when asking questions...

I am a Japanese language learner in Australia.
I feel I now need an Electronic Dictionary of some sort.

I am trying to decide between a dedictaed electronic dictionary (Casio or Canon) and the PDA system offered by Japanese Language Tools Japanese Language Tools--Complete System, specifically the Dell Axim x51v

Does anyone have any experince with the PDA from Japanese Language Tools?

The models I am look at buying are:

- Japanese Language Tools PDA

- Casio Ex-word XD-A9800
- Casio Ex-word XD-GF1000
- Casio Ex-word XD-A6500
- Casio Ex-word XD-A4800

- Canon WordTank v330
- Canon WordTank v320


Comments:

1. I do not mind the Japanese-only menus/manuals on the Ex-Words.
White rabbit press offer English guides for some models, which probably work for most. I can always ask friends when I get stuck.

2. I have read that the Ex-words and the PDA (using IME input) are more forgiving than the Canons when writing Kanji on screen, as well as not needing correct stroke order or the need to enter radicals first.

3. The Wordtank v330 and the PDA include the Eijiro dictionary, whereas the other models have the Kenkyusha dictionary. I believe the Eijiro dictionary generally has more examples.

4. In truth, I do not know if the different dictionaries would make that much of a difference given my intermediate level of Japanese. any dictinaries are probably fine... :-)

5. Speed of use. PDA's are often slightly slower than dedicated devices, both entering words and start-up time. Anyone know if this would be the case?

6. I could use the PDA as a GPS unit, too. :-)

7. Cost is a factor but I can probably afford any of the models mentioned but if the cheaper models would be recommended given my level then I am happy enough to go with them.

Does anyone have any experince with the PDA from Japanese Language Tools?


Thanks in advance for any comments.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by DJjapan

Hello,

Thanks in advance for any comments.

Canon Wordtanks are usually the best as they also design their product for usage by foreigners of the Japanese Language. They were the first brand to do this. Also they are built like tanks literally... they last a long time. I have one over about a decade old now and its still kicking. A good one (most all do today) will let you lookup kanji combinations such as 大人. For example, I lookup the left most kanji and I want to find the other kanji without knowing how to pronounce (input) the right most. With handwriting technology recognition with IME functionality built into most these days this feature is kind of mute. But the point is that the "Adult" test (both basic kanji) and a combination that almost all Japanese would know used to be exempt from the "kanji dictionary portion" of dictionaries and you could not "jump" to it; because the designers of the dictionary didn't have the foreign student of Japanese in mind.

PDAs are also awesome tools. Palm pilots have a lot of good software to assists in Japanese. Other PDAs also have some good software. Your average Palm M515 cost is pocket change and will last forever without a charge. Newer palms cost a little more, but they do more too and they can run more apps.

These days phones do too. Symbian based phones also has some great software including IMEs etc.


I've so tempted to get a new electronic dictionary with a colour screen and HD-TV tuner built into it ^^/
what better way to learn than from Japanese TV streamed all the time.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by clintjm

I've so tempted to get a new electronic dictionary with a colour screen and HD-TV tuner built into it ^^/
what better way to learn than from Japanese TV streamed all the time.

I'm not entirely sure there is HDTV streamed OTA in Japan, and I highly doubt there is Japanese OTA in the states.

Where are you that there is Japanese HDTV streamed OTA??

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

I'm not entirely sure there is HDTV streamed OTA in Japan, and I highly doubt there is Japanese OTA in the states.

Where are you that there is Japanese HDTV streamed OTA??

Perhaps I should of worded it as DTV デジタルテレビ放送 (as tt isn't really high def TV).
Yes, the digital tuner may not work in North America... I'm not sure on that.
Yes, I surely couldn't pick DTV Japanese Channels while in North America; I can barely pickup local DTV station with a good antenna in the states.
I meant when I do reside in Japan it would be nice to have on a long train or bus commute... or any commute for that matter.
For now Radio still works for me.

[DJjapan]

Originally Posted by clintjm

Canon Wordtanks are usually the best as they also design their product for usage by foreigners of the Japanese Language. They were the first brand to do this. Also they are built like tanks literally... they last a long time. I have one over about a decade old now and its still kicking. A good one (most all do today) will let you lookup kanji combinations such as 大人. For example, I lookup the left most kanji and I want to find the other kanji without knowing how to pronounce (input) the right most. With handwriting technology recognition with IME functionality built into most these days this feature is kind of mute. But the point is that the "Adult" test (both basic kanji) and a combination that almost all Japanese would know used to be exempt from the "kanji dictionary portion" of dictionaries and you could not "jump" to it; because the designers of the dictionary didn't have the foreign student of Japanese in mind.

PDAs are also awesome tools. Palm pilots have a lot of good software to assists in Japanese. Other PDAs also have some good software. Your average Palm M515 cost is pocket change and will last forever without a charge. Newer palms cost a little more, but they do more too and they can run more apps.

These days phones do too. Symbian based phones also has some great software including IMEs etc.


I've so tempted to get a new electronic dictionary with a colour screen and HD-TV tuner built into it ^^/
what better way to learn than from Japanese TV streamed all the time.

Hi,

thanks for the reply and the +1 for the wordtanks.

I am leaning toward the PDA system.
i tried an older Sharp Papyrus yesterday, and by etension, whilst I think I could work out how to use a Casio ex-word with Japanese menus, and become comfortable, I feel I might be spending a good portion of my time working out it all out initially.

The Jump function is essential for me, that is look up unknown kanji and jump to the english description (even if it means going through Kanji to Hiragana, hiragana to English. I think all of the more expensive models will do this.


cheers.

[privard]

If any JLT users are reading here, please post your thoughts.

Full disclosure: I'm the proprietor at JLT. First, you can ask any question about the system through the JLT site. I don't want this to seem like a sales pitch (note that some of my recommendations will have you paying exactly nothing to JLT); I just want to add some missing info and address some points above.

Answer to one of the questions: If you've got the dictionary program running when you turn the JLT PDA off, then it's ready to use within about a second when you turn it on again. Entering and looking up words is about as fast as on a Canon or Casio. Using the kanji handwriting entry is as fast as the better Casio or Canon systems, and MUCH faster than the typical ones--you almost always find the kanji the first time, without having to redraw. It does a better job of putting the kanji you want in the default location, and offers more alternatives.

Reply to three points above.

• The Canons let you put the menus and interface in English. But they're still designed for native Japanese speakers who need help with English. The newest top end models are more useful for non-Japanese users (as are the newest top-end Casios).
• Dictionaries: you can add kenkyusha to the JLT system, though it's not cheap (and I make almost no profit on the option--if I were willing to drift to the dark side, I could find kenkyusha on torrent sites for free and sell it for 100% profit, but I buy and include the DVDs in order for the user to have legally purchased the license to use kenkyusha). Kenkyusha, and any other dictionary, is far more usable in the JLT system and in the newer, more expensive Wordtanks and ExWords than in older and cheaper models. In the lower and older (and physically smaller) models, you can't look up Japanese words in Kenkyusha or any other word dictionary by how they're written, only by hiragana--if you see a word in print and don't already know how it's pronounced, you can't look it up (for about 20% of words, you can look it up in the kanji dictionary--if it's an example word for a kanji, you can find it there and then jump to another dictionary. But 80% of words aren't there. A good test is the word 活躍 (katsuyaku). If you can enter it in kanji, not hiragana, and look it up, then chances are the model you're trying out is OK. If you can't find it by entering kanji, that model won't be much help if you need it for reading Japanese. It's probably a good idea to try entering a number of the kinds of Japanese words you'd want to look up in the models you're considering. You can try out most of the current models in any Japanese electronics shop. Unfortunately, JLT doesn't have enough sales volume to be available in shops, but there's a 30 day moneyback guarantee, essentially creating a trial period. I've sold more than 300, many to people who already own Wordtanks and ExWords, and only had one return, so people are finding the JLT system stacks up pretty well against the competition.
• Eijiro. The versions of Eijiro on the Wordtank and on the JLT system are different animals. There are few yomigana (hiragana pronunciation guides) in the E-to-J part of Eijiro and NONE in the J-to-E. That means that unless you're fluent in reading kanji, you'll be doing a lot of jumping around just to read the results that come up in any Eijiro search, and you can't enter a Japanese word to look up by hiragana--you HAVE to enter a word in kanji if it's usually written that way. In the JLT system, there are yomigana for almost every word containing kanji, so reading results is much easier and you can look up Japanese words by either kana or kanji.

Unmentioned point: the upper end Canons and Casios that are better for non-Japanese users and that have handwriting input are larger than the JLT PDAs--the features in the pocket-sized ones are more limited. If you want something you can have with you all the time in case you want to read something you see out in the world or quickly look up a word when a conversation has come to a halt, then something that's so big you left it at home is no help at all.

Cost: 3 points.

• First, in a week or so, JLT will be offering a version of the system on a simpler PDA for 25,000 yen. Dictionaries and Japanese input functions will be the same, but the screen resolution will be lower (still a great screen compared to regular denshi jisho), and it'll have less capactiy for other non-dictionary PDA functions (but, again, it'll still be able to use a huge number of apps, go online via wi-fi, record voices, add other dictionary programs for other languages, and more).
• The JLT site has full instructions for setting up the full system on your own Windows Mobile PDA or phone. If you can get a PDA or phone with the Japanese version of WM, you can install the full system in about five minutes. If you get an English version, you first have to add the Japanese support from the Japanese version to the English OS; it's possible for most models and there are instructions online, but some things differ from model to model and it can often take some OS skill to get it working. You can do all this without paying me anything if you use the free dictionaries on the JLT site (enough for many users) or if you add EPWING dictionaries bought elsewhere (like the big Kenkyusha, Genius, Readers, Readers Plus, etc.). Or you can buy just the dictionaries, including Eijiro and or Kenkyusha etc., from JLT.
• If you don't need good handwriting input, you can set up the JLT dictionaries on an iPhone,iPad, or iPod Touch using the excellent EBPocket app, the best dictionary app for the iPhone I've seen. If you just use the free dictionaries from JLT (better than what comes with EBPocket), the only cost is $4.99 for the app. And, again, you can add Eijiro, Kenkyusha, etc., if you like.