berrypie's Japanese learning thread :)

[TJkills]

Originally Posted by Sashimister

I'm assuming that you're referring to phrases like しなくて済む, 行かなくて済む, etc.

This 済む means that:
you succeed without having to do something
you solve (a problem) without having to do something
you manage without doing something

Hope I'm talking about the 済む that you are talking about.

済む(meaning):It is completed

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by berrypie

Sometimes a verb can be negated by using ず and followed by に, how is it different from なくて? Does it sound more formal?

On the other hand, I also see something like "~ないでXXX", how is it different from "~なくてXXX"?

Let me list them out in a tidy way:
...車を運転せずに済みます。
...車を運転しなくて済みます。
...車を運転しないで済みます。

Yes, using the ず makes it sound more formal.

To put those three sentences in the order of formality:
１.　車を運転せずに済みます。
２.　車を運転しないで済みます。
３.　車を運転しなくて済みます。
Note that the difference between 2 and 3 is smaller than that between 1 and 2.

(Am I too annoying?...)

Nah, not at all.

[berrypie]

Sashimister さん(and others who'd like to discuss and teach me), I'd like to discuss the verb+行くin here, よろしくお願いします！

＊動作の継続・進行
この犬はどんどん痩せていっている。
たくさん書いていけば文章はうまくなるよ。
玉ねぎは何時間も煮ていけば解けてしまう。

Although it's not too hard, it still takes me a while to understand this.
In this case, I guess it implies the meaning of "ongoing" and "keep doing something"?

＊気持ちの満足
この結果には納得がいかない。
この料理なら満足がいく。
カナダ旅行を心いくまで楽しんだ。

I am a bit confused here.
Comparing with 納得する, I guess 納得がいく & 満足がいくmore emphasizes on "understand and accept".
For the last one, I understand what it means, but I guess one can say "心まで" too? (or may be I am wrong, because I've heard of 心から)

＊理由があって～～する事が出来ない（常に非定形）
秘密を教える訳にはいかない。
借りている本を団長に返さない訳にはいかない。
来週テストなので勉強しない訳にはいかないんだよ。

In this case Sashimister has used the expression 訳にはいかない. I guess it's the same as "いかない" except the former one sounds softer. (As in ～わけではない to ～ではない)

＊ある方法・状態で動作を開始する
よし、この方法でいこう。
さあ、今日も元気でいこう！
もう一回いってみよう。（<--　初めからやり直そう。）

It's not hard to understand these, but it's a bit difficult for me to understand how it sounds like. For example, how does it sound different if I compare the first sentence with よし、この方法でしましょう。

[berrypie]

Originally Posted by TJkills

済む(meaning):It is completed

Thank you! Somehow I have a feeling that 済む implies the thought of "at the end" or "as a result". (Of course I am not talking about word-to-word translation) Now I understand why, because in simple words, it means "You don't have too..."

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by berrypie

Sashimister さん(and others who'd like to discuss and teach me), I'd like to discuss the verb+行くin here, よろしくお願いします！

Verb + 行く ＞＞＞　Verb + いく. Good writers do not use the kanji in these phrase.

However, if you look carefully, this applies only to the first of the four groups that I introduced to you. In the other three, there are no verbs immediately before the いく.

Originally Posted by berrypie

Although it's not too hard, it still takes me a while to understand this.
In this case, I guess it implies the meaning of "ongoing" and "keep doing something"?

Precisely, just as I titled this usage (動作の継続・進行).

ずーーーーーーっと～～していく。　= You keeeeeeeep ooooon doing something.

I am a bit confused here.
Comparing with 納得する, I guess 納得がいく & 満足がいくmore emphasizes on "understand and accept".
For the last one, I understand what it means, but I guess one can say "心まで" too? (or may be I am wrong, because I've heard of 心から)

In the first two sentences, the subjects are 納得 & 満足, respectively. If you were thinking that it was a hidden "I", that would have made it difficult for you to understand the sentences.

These two sentences talk about your 納得 & 満足 "reaching a satisfactory level" or not. This "reaching　or not reaching there" is being expressed by いく/いかない.

Regarding the last sentence, no, you cannot use 心まで. It must be either 心行くまで or 心から. One can say that 心 in this context, means 満足.

In this case Sashimister has used the expression 訳にはいかない. I guess it's the same as "いかない" except the former one sounds softer. (As in ～わけではない to ～ではない)

Wrong, that is if you're saying that you can replace the 訳にはいかない by いかない.

Just think of ～～する訳にはいかない as an idiom meaning "There is no way I can ~~."

And ～～しない訳にはいかない as an idiom meaning "There is no way I can do without ~~ing."

It's not hard to understand these, but it's a bit difficult for me to understand how it sounds like. For example, how does it sound different if I compare the first sentence with よし、この方法でしましょう。

この方法でしましょう is grammatically correct but it sounds so bookish that you will rarely hear a native speaker say it, especially with よし, which is highly colloquial.

[berrypie]

Originally Posted by Sashimister

Verb + 行く ＞＞＞　Verb + いく. Good writers do not use the kanji in these phrase.

はい、わかりました！I didn't notice that it shouldn't be written in 行くat all, now I will keep that in mind.

Precisely, just as I titled this usage (動作の継続・進行).

ずーーーーーーっと～～していく。　= You keeeeeeeep ooooon doing something.

例えば、「こうして語り合っていくと、組長が好きにな っちゃいます」という感じ？

In the first two sentences, the subjects are 納得 & 満足, respectively. If you were thinking that it was a hidden "I", that would have made it difficult for you to understand the sentences.

These two sentences talk about your 納得 & 満足 "reaching a satisfactory level" or not. This "reaching　or not reaching there" is being expressed by いく/いかない.

Regarding the last sentence, no, you cannot use 心まで. It must be either 心行くまで or 心から. One can say that 心 in this context, means 満足.

うんうん、なるほど。

Wrong, that is if you're saying that you can replace the 訳にはいかない by いかない.

Just think of ～～する訳にはいかない as an idiom meaning "There is no way I can ~~."

And ～～しない訳にはいかない as an idiom meaning "There is no way I can do without ~~ing."

Let me understand the following sentence in this way,
秘密を教える訳にはいかない。
There is no way I'm gonna tell you the secret. (= I'm not gonna tell you and I don't have any intend to tell you at all)

VS 秘密を教えるのはいかない。
I can't tell you the secret. (may be it's because I am not allowed to)

借りている本を団長に返さない訳にはいかない。
There's no way you can do without returning the book to me.
Hmm... I wonder under what situation you have to say this to me, instead of saying 返さなくていきません? (You must return the book to me)

来週テストなので勉強しない訳にはいかないんだよ。
There's no way you can do without studying since there's a test next week. (= If I wanna pass, the only way I can achieve this is STUDY!)

VS 来週テストなので勉強しないといかないんだよ。
I have to study because there's a test next week.

という感じですか？

この方法でしましょう is grammatically correct but it sounds so bookish that you will rarely hear a native speaker say it, especially with よし, which is highly colloquial.

I see, just like "How do you do?" VS "How's going?" in English?

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by berrypie

　
例えば、「こうして語り合っていくと、組長が好きにな っちゃいます」という感じ？

はい、そんな感じです。

Let me understand the following sentence in this way,
秘密を教える訳にはいかない。
There is no way I'm gonna tell you the secret. (= I'm not gonna tell you and I don't have any intend to tell you at all)

Exactly.

VS 秘密を教えるのはいかない。
I can't tell you the secret. (may be it's because I am not allowed to)

We don't say 秘密を教えるのはいかない. You can say 秘密を教えることはできない。

借りている本を団長に返さない訳にはいかない。
There's no way you can do without returning the book to me.
Hmm... I wonder under what situation you have to say this to me, instead of saying 返さなくていきません? (You must return the book to me)

That is not something I would say to you. I would say it to myself.

We don't say 返さなくていきません but we say 返さなくてはいけません .

来週テストなので勉強しない訳にはいかないんだよ。
There's no way you can do without studying since there's a test next week. (= If I wanna pass, the only way I can achieve this is STUDY!)

Precisely.

VS 来週テストなので勉強しないといかないんだよ。
I have to study because there's a test next week.

という感じですか？

Again, we don't say しないといかない. It is け. You may have learned this wrong someplace.

I see, just like "How do you do?" VS "How's going?" in English?

Kind of, yes.