berrypie's Japanese learning thread :)
 

みなさん、こんにちは！
ベリーパイです。

As I continue my self-study on Japanese, I have more and more questions in my head. Instead of posting my questions in that big question thread, I'd like to have my own one so that I can trace what I have learned. (because sometime I can't jot it down into my notebook immediately)

そういうわけで、よろしくお願いしますね！

Thanks a lot in advance :)

Here is my first question: what does 済む mean? I only know it means something like "to end" or "to complete". I don't know what it exactly means especially when it's attached after a negative て-form.

I'm assuming that you're referring to phrases like しなくて済む, 行かなくて済む, etc.

This 済む means that:
you succeed without having to do something
you solve (a problem) without having to do something
you manage without doing something

Hope I'm talking about the 済む that you are talking about.

Hmm.... so what does すみません literally means?

行かなくて済
I cannot make an example sentence yet, as I haven't completely understood what it means here. To me it means something like "have something done without going to somewhere" or "achieve something without going", is it correct?

I am doing a bit reading before sleep. Here is a sentence I don't quite understand: (from "the little prince")

だけれど、ぼくたちは、ものそのもの、ことそのことが、たいせつですから、もちろん、番号なんか、どうで もいいのです。

Literally, it means "something doesn't end (well)" or "something is not completed". BUT it isn't often used for its literal meaning. As you know, we mostly say it to mean "I'm sorry."

I guess you can see the connectin there. Something didn't go as well as planned, so you are apologizing.

Correct. You were originally planning on going someplace, but something happened and it saved you the action　of going. Let me give you some examples:

父がおすしをたくさん持ってきてくれたので、晩ご飯を 作らずに済んだ。
東京は電車やバスの路線が多いので、車を運転しなくて 済みます。
宝くじが当たったので、一生働かずに済む！
雪で授業がキャンセルされたので、テストを受けずに済 んだ。

It's saying that things themselves are important, not the numbers (or perhaps names). In other words, it's saying that what counts is the content, not the looks.

うん...じゃ、「ものそのもの、ことそのこと」って、ど ういう意味ですか？To me it sounds like "this and that"

No. It doesn't mean "this and that".

ものそのもの　＝　物の本質(tangible things)
ことそのこと　＝　事の本質(intangible things)

これなら分かるでしょう？

うん... (staring at the phrase for 30 sec) I can't even guess what it means! lol. It seems that dictionary doesn't have this phrase so I totally don't understand. Now, the sentence perfectly makes sense to me.

さて、次の質問をさせていただきます。
「待つって、なにをさ」
「日が沈むまで待つのさ」
I only know an i-adjective can become a noun by attaching さ at the end (and drop the い off), how does it sound like when it is used as a sentence copula?

No this is a different さ(終助詞) and is added to the END of a sentence similar to の、か etc. It emphasises that sentence, doesn't have much meaning on it's own (like many things in Japanese).

I don't know what the context is but it just means the essentials of a thing, the core, the heart, the nature, etc. If you know what 本質 or 核心, you should be able to understand it.

This さ has nothing to do with the adjective nominalizing さ.

It is a masculine sentence-ending particle that is close to よ in meaning but is only softer. さ is very close to だよ in nuance.

kirakiraさん、答えてくださってありがとうございます！� ��れからもよろしくおねがいしますね！

(Finally someone came and answered my questions other than Sashimister :D )

Yup I know this さ is different from the one using for i-adjectives. I just don't know how it sounds like.

As Sashimister has already pointed out it's a masculine particle, as a girl I guess I just have to know what it is but not how to use it. :P


Sometimes a verb can be negated by using ず and followed by に, how is it different from なくて? Does it sound more formal?

On the other hand, I also see something like "~ないでXXX", how is it different from "~なくてXXX"?

Let me list them out in a tidy way:
...車を運転せずに済みます。
...車を運転しなくて済みます。
...車を運転しないで済みます。

(Am I too annoying?...)

済む(meaning):It is completed

Yes, using the ず makes it sound more formal.

To put those three sentences in the order of formality:
１.　車を運転せずに済みます。
２.　車を運転しないで済みます。
３.　車を運転しなくて済みます。
Note that the difference between 2 and 3 is smaller than that between 1 and 2.

Nah, not at all.

Sashimister さん(and others who'd like to discuss and teach me), I'd like to discuss the verb+行くin here, よろしくお願いします！

Although it's not too hard, it still takes me a while to understand this.
In this case, I guess it implies the meaning of "ongoing" and "keep doing something"?

I am a bit confused here.
Comparing with 納得する, I guess 納得がいく & 満足がいくmore emphasizes on "understand and accept".
For the last one, I understand what it means, but I guess one can say "心まで" too? (or may be I am wrong, because I've heard of 心から)

In this case Sashimister has used the expression 訳にはいかない. I guess it's the same as "いかない" except the former one sounds softer. (As in ～わけではない to ～ではない)

It's not hard to understand these, but it's a bit difficult for me to understand how it sounds like. For example, how does it sound different if I compare the first sentence with よし、この方法でしましょう。

Thank you! Somehow I have a feeling that 済む implies the thought of "at the end" or "as a result". (Of course I am not talking about word-to-word translation) Now I understand why, because in simple words, it means "You don't have too..."

Verb + 行く ＞＞＞　Verb + いく. Good writers do not use the kanji in these phrase.

However, if you look carefully, this applies only to the first of the four groups that I introduced to you. In the other three, there are no verbs immediately before the いく.

Precisely, just as I titled this usage (動作の継続・進行).

ずーーーーーーっと～～していく。　= You keeeeeeeep ooooon doing something.

In the first two sentences, the subjects are 納得 & 満足, respectively. If you were thinking that it was a hidden "I", that would have made it difficult for you to understand the sentences.

These two sentences talk about your 納得 & 満足 "reaching a satisfactory level" or not. This "reaching　or not reaching there" is being expressed by いく/いかない.

Regarding the last sentence, no, you cannot use 心まで. It must be either 心行くまで or 心から. One can say that 心 in this context, means 満足.

Wrong, that is if you're saying that you can replace the 訳にはいかない by いかない.

Just think of ～～する訳にはいかない as an idiom meaning "There is no way I can ~~."

And ～～しない訳にはいかない as an idiom meaning "There is no way I can do without ~~ing."

この方法でしましょう is grammatically correct but it sounds so bookish that you will rarely hear a native speaker say it, especially with よし, which is highly colloquial.

はい、わかりました！I didn't notice that it shouldn't be written in 行くat all, now I will keep that in mind.

例えば、「こうして語り合っていくと、組長が好きにな っちゃいます」という感じ？

うんうん、なるほど。

Let me understand the following sentence in this way,
秘密を教える訳にはいかない。
There is no way I'm gonna tell you the secret. (= I'm not gonna tell you and I don't have any intend to tell you at all)

VS 秘密を教えるのはいかない。
I can't tell you the secret. (may be it's because I am not allowed to)

借りている本を団長に返さない訳にはいかない。
There's no way you can do without returning the book to me.
Hmm... I wonder under what situation you have to say this to me, instead of saying 返さなくていきません? (You must return the book to me)

来週テストなので勉強しない訳にはいかないんだよ。
There's no way you can do without studying since there's a test next week. (= If I wanna pass, the only way I can achieve this is STUDY!)

VS 来週テストなので勉強しないといかないんだよ。
I have to study because there's a test next week.

という感じですか？

I see, just like "How do you do?" VS "How's going?" in English?

はい、そんな感じです。:o

Exactly.

We don't say 秘密を教えるのはいかない. You can say 秘密を教えることはできない。

That is not something I would say to you. I would say it to myself.

We don't say 返さなくていきません but we say 返さなくてはいけません .

Precisely.

Again, we don't say しないといかない. It is け. You may have learned this wrong someplace.

Kind of, yes.