Study Tips?

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by steven

It also depends on your definition of "fluent"... I think that a very decent conversational level of Japanese can be acquired while in the US if you really busted your ass for 4 years.

Yeah, but "conversational level" <<<<<<<<<<<<<< "fluent" so that's a bunk argument.

That's like saying "well, whether the sun can be blue or not depends on your definition of 'blue.' The sun is naturally orange."

You're fundamentally changing the definition of "fluent" by equating it with "conversational."

[cranks]

What is fluent is always a controversy to which you never get an answer. I like to use the IRL scale because it is very objective.(check the links at the bottom)

ILR Scale

I usually consider one to be fluent if he/she is at level 3. For example, I'll say you speak fluently if you are at Speaking 3.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by cranks

What is fluent is always a controversy to which you never get an answer. I like to use the IRL scale because it is very objective.(check the links at the bottom)

ILR Scale

I usually consider one to be fluent if he/she is at level 3. For example, I'll say you speak fluently if you are at Speaking 3.

But there you introduce subjectivity into the analysis. I would say level 1 or 2 is "conversant." So again, we're at the same impasse.

I'll just drop the argument. We won't get anywhere. Regardless, you will not ever reach level 3 in Japanese within four years of residing in the US unless you move to Little Tokyo somewhere and speak practically only Japanese all day.

I spent about ten hours a week speaking Japanese in the US for three years, and also lived in Japan speaking only Japanese for a year. I still wouldn't have called myself fluent after all that. Conversant, yes. Fluent, no way, Jose.

[cranks]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

But there you introduce subjectivity into the analysis. I would say level 1 or 2 is "conversant." So again, we're at the same impasse.

Sure. But now you can at least say "I think Speaking 2 is conversant". And I can say "OK. I think Speaking 2 is fluent. but that's my personal opinion I guess". We have some common ground.

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

I'll just drop the argument. We won't get anywhere. Regardless, you will not ever reach level 3 in Japanese within four years of residing in the US unless you move to Little Tokyo somewhere and speak practically only Japanese all day.

By the same people who developed the IRL scale, it is said that it takes 4000 hours, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 2+ years, of dedicated study with professional instructors to get to the level 3 in all 4 skills, Speaking, Listening, Writing and Reading. So yes, it is REALLY hard. But I wouldn't say it's impossible. Just unbelievably hard. By the way, Spanish takes 1/4 of the time so your (or was it yours?) assumption is correct. It's a LOT easier to learn Spanish or any Indo-European language than Japanese.

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

I spent about ten hours a week speaking Japanese in the US for three years, and also lived in Japan speaking only Japanese for a year. I still wouldn't have called myself fluent after all that. Conversant, yes. Fluent, no way, Jose.

I spent half my life, 17 years, in the US and the UK and I'm still sometimes hesitant to say I'm fluent in English. so, you're not alone

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by cranks

By the same people who developed the IRL scale, it is said that it takes 4000 hours, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 2+ years, of dedicated study with professional instructors to get to the level 3 in all 4 skills, Speaking, Listening, Writing and Reading. So yes, it is REALLY hard. But I wouldn't say it's impossible.

Well, to the extent 8-hour-a-day-5-days-a-week-2+years instructors are not at all affordable to anyone on this board, I'd say it's impossible.

But yeah, for a billionaire, it's possible.

That was a great link, though. Thanks.

[cranks]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

Well, to the extent 8-hour-a-day-5-days-a-week-2+years instructors are not at all affordable to anyone on this board, I'd say it's impossible.

But yeah, for a billionaire, it's possible.

That was a great link, though. Thanks.

What? you are not a billionaire? I'm sorry, I assumed this is an A-list forum :P

Seriously though, I think an instructors is a nice to have. If you spend that much time, you'll most likely be almost as good without an instructor.

[KyleGoetz]

blahblah editing away my post

[steven]

I like the IRL scale. I would agree with crank-- 3 seems to be 'fluent'. That's my opinion of it anyways. It's when you get to a level of self learning, in a sense.

I think it'd be safe to say that written Japanese and Spoken Japanese are completely different beasts. Unless you're talking about REALLY formal announcements or speeches and stuff like that. I think that really complicates things for Japanese. Spoken English is quite different than written English as well in my opinion, but just nowhere near the difference in Japanese.

Also, no offense to insructors of Japanese or instructors of English, but man have I seen some misleading teaching in my days. You could create some kind of study of induced errors with just the stuff I've seen alone. Sometimes instructed language is not the most intuitive thing to have to deal with. I found that letting go of my books was really the best thing that happened to me. I'm sure there was a lot of it that really helped me progress to the level that I'm at, but after a while it was getting in the way, and I really started to feel it after a while.

Out of curiosity, how many people have you encountered who are 3 or above on that IRL scale with listening and speaking? I've met only a handful of Japanese study abroad students who I'd put at that level. I've NEVER encountered a second language teacher who was not a college proffessor who was even a 2+ (a 2 would be generous for most cases). I've yet to meet a Japanese person in Japan with whom I can let loose native English on, I'm starting to wonder about my own English sometimes. To be honest, that was one of the reasons to come on here... to give me stuff to write about in English because I'm slowly losing nuances (and I'm sure you've all seen me mispell words and make grammatical errors).

Being generous, I'd put myself at a 3+ for listening and speaking, but maybe a 1 for reading (no joke) and my writing is questionable. If my wife or someone reads what is written I will understand it, but I can't really read it myself... it started getting embarassing so thats when I started getting serious about kanji. If I write like I speak, it will be understood but it will also be completely unnacceptable judging it by actual Japanese writing rules.

An aside:
A new chinese student came to my school recently and they don't understand ANYJapanese. In fact, the person understands more English than Japanese, although the student's English ability is greatly limited.

It made me remember another Chinese student who had graduated a couple years prior. I found out he was Chinese when I realized that the kanji for his name was quite different than the other students. He was very fluent in English (relatively speaking... I'd give him a 2 on that IRL scale maybe). I found out just a week or so ago that he too didn't understand a lick of Japanese when he got here! He had learned it all in a matter of 1 and a half years. He supposedly studied for about 6 hours a day. Incidentally he was passing tests with better scores than most of his peers (even Japanese history tests). I would love to observe a person who is capable of doing that. I think there is a LOT to be learned about language acquisition from cases like that. It could just be a matter of Chinese sharing similarities to Japanese, but I think that there is a lot to learn about general second language acquisition that could be applied to English education in Japan.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by steven

I like the IRL scale. I would agree with crank-- 3 seems to be 'fluent'. That's my opinion of it anyways. It's when you get to a level of self learning, in a sense.

I think it'd be safe to say that written Japanese and Spoken Japanese are completely different beasts. Unless you're talking about REALLY formal announcements or speeches and stuff like that. I think that really complicates things for Japanese. Spoken English is quite different than written English as well in my opinion, but just nowhere near the difference in Japanese.

Also, no offense to insructors of Japanese or instructors of English, but man have I seen some misleading teaching in my days. You could create some kind of study of induced errors with just the stuff I've seen alone. Sometimes instructed language is not the most intuitive thing to have to deal with. I found that letting go of my books was really the best thing that happened to me. I'm sure there was a lot of it that really helped me progress to the level that I'm at, but after a while it was getting in the way, and I really started to feel it after a while.

Out of curiosity, how many people have you encountered who are 3 or above on that IRL scale with listening and speaking? I've met only a handful of Japanese study abroad students who I'd put at that level. I've NEVER encountered a second language teacher who was not a college proffessor who was even a 2+ (a 2 would be generous for most cases). I've yet to meet a Japanese person in Japan with whom I can let loose native English on, I'm starting to wonder about my own English sometimes. To be honest, that was one of the reasons to come on here... to give me stuff to write about in English because I'm slowly losing nuances (and I'm sure you've all seen me mispell words and make grammatical errors).

Being generous, I'd put myself at a 3+ for listening and speaking, but maybe a 1 for reading (no joke) and my writing is questionable. If my wife or someone reads what is written I will understand it, but I can't really read it myself... it started getting embarassing so thats when I started getting serious about kanji. If I write like I speak, it will be understood but it will also be completely unnacceptable judging it by actual Japanese writing rules.

An aside:
A new chinese student came to my school recently and they don't understand ANYJapanese. In fact, the person understands more English than Japanese, although the student's English ability is greatly limited.

It made me remember another Chinese student who had graduated a couple years prior. I found out he was Chinese when I realized that the kanji for his name was quite different than the other students. He was very fluent in English (relatively speaking... I'd give him a 2 on that IRL scale maybe). I found out just a week or so ago that he too didn't understand a lick of Japanese when he got here! He had learned it all in a matter of 1 and a half years. He supposedly studied for about 6 hours a day. Incidentally he was passing tests with better scores than most of his peers (even Japanese history tests). I would love to observe a person who is capable of doing that. I think there is a LOT to be learned about language acquisition from cases like that. It could just be a matter of Chinese sharing similarities to Japanese, but I think that there is a lot to learn about general second language acquisition that could be applied to English education in Japan.

I think the simplistic lesson from that anecdote is "move to a country, and the impossible become possible."