Japanese Particles & Sentence Structure help!

[mirandatothemax]

Hi, so I just want to get clarification on some of the questions on my homework. I will include my answers and please correct me if I'm wrong and feel free to explain where I'm messing up. I really appreciate any help!

Complete the following sentences with the appropriate particles (including an X for no particle needed)

1. わたしは まいにち___ 8じ___ がっこう___ きます

X (no particle needed for まいにち right?), に, に

2. わたしは きょう___ 8じ___ うち___ ごはん ___ たべます

X (no particle for きょう?), に, で, を

3. わたしは にちようび___ ごご___ うち___ ビデオ___ みます

の, に (Sunday's evening? This one confused me), で, を

4. わたしは げつようび___ かようび___ 9じ___ テレビ___ みます

と, に, に, を (is using に twice for a certain time on a certain day correct?)

5. あした___ あさって___ がっこう___ にほんご___ じゅぎょう___ あります

と, X (no particle for あした + あさって?), で, の, が

6. わたしは まいばん___ 10じ___ おふろ___ はいす

X (no particle for まいばん?), に, に


Are any of my answers incorrect? If so, I really appreciate any help on what I got wrong!



Second part, translations:


1. I have a Japanese class at 7:00 pm on Monday and Wednesday.

わたしは げつようびと すいようびに ごごしちじに にほんごの じゅぎょうが あります.

2. I read books at the library on Monday.

わたしは げつようびに としょかんで ほんを よみます. (is plural and singular ほん the same?)

3. I sometimes go to a movie.

わたしは ときどき えいがへ いきます. (へ instead of に because it's an event you're going to, right?)

4. I always do my homework on Sunday.

わたしは いつも にちようびに しゅくだいを します.

5. I go to bed at 11:00 every night.

わたしは まいばん じゅういちじに ねます.

6. I don't take a bath at all.

わたしは ぜんぜん おふろに はいりません.

7. I meet with my friend at Everett Mall this weekend.

わたしと ともだちは こんしゅうまつ エベレット モールに あいます. (this one is probably totally wrong, but I had to guess!)


Again I really appreciate any help! Thanks

[Columbine]

I'm pleased to see you've made a real effort with your homework before posting here; generally JF isn't a place for homework help, partly because it is often very clear if you've been helped by a native speaker, and you might be discredited for plagarism! Don't forget- making small mistakes and getting ~proper~ teacher feedback is all part of the learning process; so far you look like you're doing just fine.

Regarding へand に：I've come across the difference being simply explained as 'へ is used when the destination is an event' before. I'm not sure where this idea comes from because it's not really correct.

One reason why へ might be used over にis for the sake of variation:
げつようびにおおさかにいきます has two に, which is fine, but some people may prefer to say げつようびにおおさかへいきます instead-へcan replace the second に but never the 'time' に of course.

but basically へ indicates a direction or goal, or a destination toward which one is moving or at which one has arrived "to"

so in とうきょうにいきます the meaning is more like simply "I go to Tokyo"
but in とうきょうへいきます　is more (roughly) like "I head for Tokyo" even though most people would also translate it as "I go to Tokyo" too.

Secondly: I'm sure if you're following a text book they implicitly encourage it, but every one of your translations uses 'わたしは’ or some variant. It's more natural (and more practical!) to just drop it. The grammar implies that you are the subject already, so there's no need to state it unless you really want to.

Regarding number 7 (meeting a friend), I think you've gotten quite muddled in how this sentence should be constructed. You're probably already paying for one teacher, so I'll let them do their job and correct it for you. However, if you still don't understand, or want to practice it, feel free to come back and ask again, ok? We'll be happy to help.

[mirandatothemax]

Thanks! My teacher isn't the best at clarifying things so I've found that it's a lot more helpful to talk to a native English speaker who is fluent or really well-studied in Japanese because they understand what I'm asking much more easily! If you could explain how #7 should be formed I would really appreciate it! My teacher doesn't really give thorough help on an assignment before it's due and since I know it's wrong already it would be awesome if I could understand it before I turn it in! Thanks again for actually reading my post and helping!

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by mirandatothemax

Thanks! My teacher isn't the best at clarifying things so I've found that it's a lot more helpful to talk to a native English speaker who is fluent or really well-studied in Japanese because they understand what I'm asking much more easily! If you could explain how #7 should be formed I would really appreciate it! My teacher doesn't really give thorough help on an assignment before it's due and since I know it's wrong already it would be awesome if I could understand it before I turn it in! Thanks again for actually reading my post and helping!

I'm not going to give you that exact sentence, but I'll try and show you how to form a similar one so you can try for yourself. Please bear in mind I'm not fluent though.

"On Monday I met my sister at the train station."

The basic constituents are the time, the place, who, and the action, which are respectively, monday, the train station, my sister (and I) and met. You can pretty much swap these around as need be. Let's translate those basic words first:

月曜日　げつようび
駅　えき
姉　あね
合う　あう　（あいました）

To say 'on monday' of course, we need the particle に：　げつようびに
To say 'at the train station', we need the partlcle で：　えきで
Unlike in the English, we don't really need to emphasis my involvement- it's already obvious, so we'll drop the 私は（わたしは）for now.
which leaves the tricky bit : あね. It could be に　or it could be と、depending on the nuance.

So we could have: げつようびにえきであねとあいました。
or equally,
げつようびにあねとえきであいました
both of which imply a sense of 'togetherness', or mutuality. My sister had expected to meet me and I had expected to meet her. It also suggests we kind of hung about together a bit. Lit: "met with older sister"

Compare with:
げつようびにえきであねにあいました
it's the same thing; I met my sister at the train station on Monday, but the nuance is different- in this case, one party came into contact with the other. E.G. I may have expected to see her, but it's also ~possible~ it was by chance or she hadn't expected to see me. It has slightly less of the 'hung about a bit' nuance too- perhaps we just bumped into each other, said hi and dashed off our separate ways. Lit: "met to older sister"

[Decimus]

In novice Japanese classes (or at least the one I took a long time ago.), they expect you to translate the 「わたしは」 instead of dropping it. (assuming you are starting from an English sentence.)

I'd managed to get a whole bunch of red-marked corrections on one of my early homework assignments because I decided to go ahead and drop the 「わたしは」 instead of leaving them in. (I was taking the class primarily for the speaking and listening lessons.) This was despite the teacher being a native speaker.

The reason given was that the teacher has to be sure that the student knows what 「わたしは」 means. Assuming that a novice student knows the nuances of when to drop the subject (or technically, "topic") is not a good idea, as most novice students probably do not have prior knowledge of Japanese. It's possible that the student may have neglected to put 「わたしは」 because he doesn't know how to translate "I will/I do/I am/etc."

Best if the OP checks with his teacher, but there's nothing grammatically wrong about appending わたしは　to the beginning of a sentence all the time when the topic is about the speaker. Very awkward, yes, but there's nothing wrong.

If I recall correctly, when talking about meeting somebody at a specific place at a specific time, the preferred construction (ie: the "Textbook" example) was 「わたしは(Specific Time)に（Place)で(Person)にあいます。」 or 「わたしは(Relative Time)（Place)で(Person)にあいます。」　「げつようび（に� �」 (On Monday)　and 「ななじ（に）」 (At seven o'clock) are considered to be specific while relative time refers to a time period that is relative to the moment when you were speaking, such as 「きのう」(Yesterday) and 「あした」(Tomorrow)

「に」, when used to refer to time, has a meaning similar to the English "at", "in", and "on". In my class, the use of 「に」 was usually required for "specific time periods" and generally considered incorrect for "relative time periods". An exception was made for multiple "specific time periods" in a row, such as　「げつようびにななじに」, with the teacher asking us to write 「げつようびななじに」 instead. According to her, the former, while technically correct, is incredibly awkward, and the teacher can already see that the student knows how to use 「に」 properly since it was already appended at the end of 「ななじ」

The use of [ーとあいます。」 was discouraged because it was not taught in class yet. Generally, try to avoid using constructions that have not been taught yet, unless you have discussed it with your teacher or if the teacher knows your capabilities well.

When used to indicate direction of motion, no distinction was made between 「に」 and 「へ」 (e.g. "にいきます"　and "へいきます") The teacher actually encouraged the students to use 「に」 instead of 「へ」 since the latter has more specific uses (while 「に」 can also be used for other functions), so the student is less likely to make mistakes.

That said, the teacher did tell us that she preferred us to use 「へ」 if there's another 「に」 in close proximity, to make it easier to read.

There are slight differences between 「に」 and 「へ」, and Columbine was correct. The distinction was not taught in class because it's likely to confuse a novice learner of Japanese. If you are curious though, read on.

(Some basic kanji will be used. This is a 'check' of sorts, as I believe that the knowledge of these kanji is more important than knowing the subtle differences between 「へ」 and 「に] If it's too confusing to read, come back when you can read kanji comfortably.)

Technically, 「に」 implies arrival (or technically, "the state of being somewhere."), while 「へ」 implies direction of motion. The former places emphasis on the actor (the person doing the "moving") while the latter emphasizes the destination. For example:

私は学校に行きます。 I go to school. (and I will be there.)
私は学校へ行きます。 I go towards school.　

Both of these have almost the same meaning, but the former implies "arriving at school", while the latter implies "heading towards the direction of school."

Despite the slight differences, I believe that most native Japanese speakers would not differentiate between the two anyway since both "arriving at school" and "heading towards the direction of school" is generally implied regardless of how the sentenced was phrased.

'though I suppose somebody 'crafty' could play with the words to come up with an excuse. AKA "I did say that I was heading towards school, but I didn't say that I would stay there!"

Still not a good idea though.

[chryuop]

Regarding に and へ I remember finding something weird in a book a long time ago and I had to ask for help in another forum. I fortunately found it and I can quote what a native speaker taught me.

Me:
こんにちは。
日本の本を読んでいます。話の表題は分福茶釜で、子ど も向け本です。手短にいえば、ある”道具屋さん”はた だで古い茶釜を貰いました 。彼は貧乏暮らしをしました。やがて、茶釜は狸に化け て、あの道具屋さんに”わたしをここへおいてください ”と訊きました。”なにいうだ。おらはごらんのとおり の貧乏暮らし、たぬきを飼うゆとりなどありゃしねえ。 山へ帰るがいいだ”と答えました。でも、同じたぬきは つぎのページで”わたしをここにおいてください”とい います。
始めは”おく”という言葉がちょっと混乱を引き起こし ました。辞書で調べて、”泊まらせる”という意味もあ ります。でも、どうして”ここへ”を使ったかわかりま せん。どちらも”ここに”でしょうか。
お願いします。

Native Speaker:
私は常に「に」と「へ」の違いは、その時点での話し手 の意識の違いだと思っています。

基本的な意識は、
「に」の場合は、指定した場所がその時点での最終的な 目的地であり、
「へ」の場合は、指定した場所は一時的な場所を示す
というものです。
これが、基本的な意識の違いです。従って、

「ここに」の場合は、「ここ」が最終的な目的地ですし 、
「ここへ」の場合は、「ここ」は飽くまでも一時的な場 所を指しているということです。

最初に、「ここへ」おいてくださいといったときは、「 ここ」を最終地としてではなく、
どこかに行くまでの「一時的な場所」として捉えていて 、

二度目に、「ここに」おいてくださいといったときは、 どこにも行くところがないので、
「ここに」おいてくださいと言ったのだとおもいます。 （飽くまでも推測ですが）

また、この「に」と「へ」の使い分けは、あくまでも、 その時点での話し手の意識の問題ですから、
「に」が続く場合もあるでしょうし、「へ」で終わる場 合もあります。

例えば、同じようなことを言う場合でも、次のように意 識によって違う場合があります。

①大阪から名古屋「へ」行って、横浜「へ」寄ってから 東京「に」帰ります。（東京が最終目的地。名古屋、横 浜は通過点との意識：一般的な場合）
②大阪から名古屋「に」行って、横浜「に」寄ってから 東京「へ」帰ります。（名古屋、横浜はその時点時点で の最終目的地。東京は最終目的地の東京にある自宅への 通過点との意識：東京にある自宅が最終目的地）

Me:
さて、たいへん面白かったです。どうもありがとうござ います。
わかったと思います。例えば：
--電話で--
①こっちに来て、一緒に食べる。
②こっちへ来て、一緒に食べる。

①について誰か私の家に来て、一緒に家で食べる。
②について誰か一緒に食べるために家に来る。これなら 、家でも外でもで食べられます。それとも、家で食べて 、一緒に外に出かけます。

正しいですか。

Native speaker:
そうです。その通りです。その理解が基本だと思います 。

ただ、これは飽くまでも、話しているその瞬間瞬間での 話し手の意識（ひょっとすると意識していないかも知れ ませんが）の問題ですので、次の瞬間にはもう変わって いるかも知れません。ですから、「に」と「へ」が分け もなく混在する現象がよくみられることになるのだと思 います。