つこった、もろった、くぼった

[steven]

I wanted some clarification on some pronunciation that I've been hearing for a while now. I've noticed that verbs like つかった、もらった、くばった get changed to つこった、もろった、and　くぼった sometimes. In other words, the あ sound gets changed to an お sound. I have to say though, that it's not always a pure お sound... sometimes it's like partway inbetween. It reminds me of like an American east coast accent to a degree (if that makes any sense). As far as I know I've never had trouble understanding the meanings of any of these, but I was wondering if this is a normal pronunciation thing or not. Is it an older way of pronouncing words maybe? Is it just another regional thing?

[masaegu]

Originally Posted by steven

I wanted some clarification on some pronunciation that I've been hearing for a while now. I've noticed that verbs like つかった、もらった、くばった get changed to つこった、もろった、and　くぼった sometimes. In other words, the あ sound gets changed to an お sound. I have to say though, that it's not always a pure お sound... sometimes it's like partway inbetween. It reminds me of like an American east coast accent to a degree (if that makes any sense). As far as I know I've never had trouble understanding the meanings of any of these, but I was wondering if this is a normal pronunciation thing or not. Is it an older way of pronouncing words maybe? Is it just another regional thing?

You only hear those in Kansai and areas with heavy Kansai influence like Hokuriku. Historically speaking, those pronunciation are older and much closer to Classical Japanese than what is considered Standard now.

[steven]

Wow! I was hoping you would reply. I appreciate it.

Ok, that's kind of the idea that I had. I don't know if it's my ears getting better but I feel like I've been hearing it more than ever lately... although I can't think of a reason why that'd be.

It's interesting because with Hokuriku having a lot of Kansai influence I sometimes hear about old words from Kansai that current Kansai speakers wouldn't understand. I love this kind of stuff though-- it makes me want to study Japanese history and how different dialects flowed and "fossilization" in different regions.

Just out of curiosity, does the (loose) rule that I presented apply to all words? Could a word like さがす　become さごす, could さがる become すごる？ There are certain words that seem like they can naturally be pronounced that way and words that seem like it just wouldn't work with. (すごる seems weird... さごす seems possible).

[masaegu]

Originally Posted by steven

Wow! I was hoping you would reply. I appreciate it.

Ok, that's kind of the idea that I had. I don't know if it's my ears getting better but I feel like I've been hearing it more than ever lately... although I can't think of a reason why that'd be.

It's interesting because with Hokuriku having a lot of Kansai influence I sometimes hear about old words from Kansai that current Kansai speakers wouldn't understand. I love this kind of stuff though-- it makes me want to study Japanese history and how different dialects flowed and "fossilization" in different regions.

Just out of curiosity, does the (loose) rule that I presented apply to all words? Could a word like さがす　become さごす, could さがる become すごる？ There are certain words that seem like they can naturally be pronounced that way and words that seem like it just wouldn't work with. (すごる seems weird... さごす seems possible).

The phenomenon in question doesn't occur with every word, obviously. It happens to verbs with a certain sound combination towards the end of the word. Let me use romaji so that my point could be explained more visibly.

tsukau
morau
warau
kau
shimau

The verb must end in an "a-syllable + u" combo. This is the condition; therefore, the verb you mentioned さがる does not apply.

使う was originally both written and pronounced つかふ. Then the pronunciation changed to つかう over time. The present tense つかう is used all over Japan with the same pronunciation.

Let's examine the past tense as it's much more interesting. Originally, it was つかふた and then changed to つかうた, then to つこうた. Then the pronunciation got even sloppier to つこーた. There you go, that's the present-day Kansai (and areas around it) past tense.

For the rest of the country, or very roughly its Eastern half (or Nagoya east), the pronunciation changed one more time to arrive at つかった, which all of you are familiar with.

[steven]

Thank you! By the way I notice you edited your post-- I found the edited portion to be quite interesting to be honest. It sounds like you got to see a very interesting part of America (that I frankly can hardly even imagine... it reminds me a bit of the Amish or something like that).

Looking at the rule that you provided me, it seems right to my ears. However, with a word like くばる being changed to くぼった, I seem to hear words that don't follow the rule you presented. I wonder if there is a reason for that. Do you know of why people'd say that?

I feel like I hear つこおた sometimes... places where I'd expect a small "tsu", the vowel just gets kinda dragged out. I only seem to hear it with kind of older people in the mountains though.

[masaegu]

The part that I deleted was the most interesting thing I have said to anyone in many weeks but I deleted it because I felt like I had gotten too excited and gone off topic. But if you ever go there, you are not going to believe your own ears.

To everyone else, I was talking about my experience in the isolated areas of the Appalachian Mountains in Tennessee and Kentucky in hearing English from over 200 years ago, the kind of English that has comepletely disappeared in England itself as England is too small and flat for the fossilization of language to occur. It has occured in Japan because, unlike in England, it has many mountain ranges and major rivers that kept people from moving around freely for centuries before the age of railroads and highways. (Looks like I got excited again and put it all back on here.)
________

I really have no ideas why people say what they say. I've been to Kansai many times but have never stayed there for more than a few days at a time. As you know, however, language is always full of exceptions. One finds exceptions most often in frequently-used words. 配る may just be one of those words. If you carefully looked at the romaji verbs I listed, though, you would have noticed that I purposely didn't include 配る because I myself wasn't sure if I've heard it pronounced くぼった or くぼーた. For the rest of that list, I hear them in the past tense all the time on TV so I listed them with confidence.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by masaegu

To everyone else, I was talking about my experience in the isolated areas of the Appalachian Mountains in Tennessee and Kentucky in hearing English from over 200 years ago, the kind of English that has comepletely disappeared in England itself as England is too small and flat for the fossilization of language to occur. It has occured in Japan because, unlike in England, it has many mountain ranges and major rivers that kept people from moving around freely for centuries before the age of railroads and highways. (Looks like I got excited again and put it all back on here.)
________

That's pretty cool. I remember when I was chatting with a friend of mine in Japan. He was really hardcore about learning English, and had gotten a family in Japan from the US to make a recording of them reading some sentences.

He asked me if I could tell where they were from (I am a collector of accents). I correctly responded: Kentucky.

KY and Tennessee natives have unique accents due to what you called the fossilization of language. The states were settled by a metric crapload of Scots-Irish and some English, IIRC.