What's the point to kanji stroke order?
 

so as I've been learning kanji, I've noticed that they all have stroke orders. I also notice that I tend to not follow them. I've figured that the largest point to these would be calligraphy, but I've heard from friends that my teachers in coming years will be more concerned with stroke orders and I've had one friend tell me that stroke order helped him memorize the kanji. Most of the stroke orders seem counter-intuitive to me though and can take me longer to write, so I'm wondering if anyone could tell me what the point to them is? I would ask my teacher but it didn't occur to me to ask until just now as I'm studying for finals

Calligraphy is one reason and the pen handwriting is another. Daily handwritig is done mainly in semicursive and cursive styles, if the stroke order is not set, or mistaken, it would be impossible to read the text which is already rather complex (especially in 草書 - cursive style). Aesthetical values are another issue. Kanji written incorrectly look like decrepit creatures from X Files. Lastly, learning kanji and radicals would be the third reason. So, if you are serious about learning and understanding the Chinese characters, you must learn the stroke order, which is not that difficult.

I wrote you some examples:

1. Kanji 栽, meaning plant (same as in bonsai - 盆栽) Pay attention to the stroke order in the left hand side, and then the change of it in the right hand side (stroke order change is permitted in cursive script, but also there are strict rules to it). Without knowing the proper stroke order you would not be able to write it, or even read it.

2. Kanji 心 meaning heart. You have shown here not only the stroke order importance but the overal balance issue as well. Both need to be taken into consideration while learning how to write by hand, be it a brush or a pen.

面白いです。

I wasn't even aware of cursive style. I think I'll devote some of my studies over the summer to learning stroke order then.

This site might be a good reference in case you do not have a dictionary that explains the stroke order:

漢字の正しい書き順(筆順) - 「書」の書き方

Also, please remember that stroke order may differ in standard script (similar to what's being used as basic PC font) and cursive scripts. So, mastering the standard script stroke order is the first step.

Also, some basic information is to be found here:

Stroke order - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You don't need to use kanji all the time. Using kanji in おもしろい is considered poor writing.

This is true, and it is quite common among those who have just begun to study kanji (or anything else), but in case of learning Chinese characters repeating is learning, so i guess it does not hurt to overdo it.

I'm completely ignorant of the proper way to write this word, but I do find it curious (and, I suppose, potentially confusing) that its WWWJDIC entry shows it in kanji like any other word, with no hint that it is a word usually written in kana (i.e., the entry has no "uk" code).

If you go to school in Japan, which I naturally did (kindergarten thru university), you do not even learn to write おもしろい using kanji. Most teachers would correct you if you learned to write it as 面白い someplace else as in manga or magazines and used it in school. There are many words like this.

Here's a website regardng this phenomenon by a major dictionary publisher.
http://dictionary.sanseido-publ.co.j.../subPage3.html

With all due respect to Jim Breen (and I really do mean that), the WWWJDIC is not perfect—it's a dictionary compiled by a non-native speaker with contributions from random people online. You'll find that there's a link on the page that still solicits corrections and contributions.

It's a GREAT reference, but "WWWJDIC says otherwise" isn't always a winning argument.

You'll find words like 是非 written in kanji in the WWWJDIC, too, but it's considered poor form to write ぜひ in kanji. Same with 有り難う御座います（ありがとうございます）、御目出 度う（おめでとう）, etc.

Hell, I can extend this statement to really include any dictionary. You'll find "ain't" is in the dictionary, but it does not change the fact that writing "ain't" in an essay is typically considered poor writing. Even though "ain't" was originally a correct contraction for "am not."

Just rest assured you will, over time, develop an eye for this sort of thing. I used to be as kanji-happy as most new learners, but over time, I learned to sense (and I'm still not perfect) when to use kanji and when not. It's like learning irregular verbs—you see the exceptions enough and you internalize them.

In general, if it's a word you've known and read in Japanese for 2+ years and just now go "hey, this is the kanji for it!" then you shouldn't use kanji for it. There's a reason you haven't seen it in kanji before. :)

Thanks for the link!

Thanks for the info, I'm having somewhat the same issue as Colin. The genki textbooks seem to list the kanji for everything, so I'm not sure when not to use them.

You would just have to learn the exceptions one by one and do so almost by trial and error. There is no way you are going to memorize the contents of the website I posted. Moreover, these are not, by any means, absolute written rules but are more like what the "better writers and readers" aesthetically tend to prefer.

How strict is this rule? I have found many of those words in the link Masaegu gave written in kanji in books (and not textbooks, but novels). A couple of people I write to in Japan regularly use 事 instead of こと (another one of those words in Masaegu's link).

It's not much of a rule. Think of it this way: As a general rule, it is considered poor/casual writing in English to use contractions. But it's not "wrong" so much as "if you do it you may look less learned." You might liken it to the use of words like "colour" and "theorise" instead of "color" and "theorize." I can't think of a good analogy.

Also, the rule is in a state of flux. You'll find some older Japanese people still use kanji for certain things, while younger people (in their 30s and 40s) who may think using hiragana is superior. Masaegu falls into the latter group, while there is at least one Japanese member here who falls into the former (forget who, though...). I believe Sashimister and Nagoyankee have fallen into the latter group. I'm not sure about YuriTokoro and the others who post less often. I've seen a debate between a couple natives on this topic, too.

There are some I think I can categorically say are very widely considered poor writing. Off the top of my head, 出来る. You should always write できる instead. The only time you can get away with using the kanji is basically when you write the word 出来事.

If you are going to learn to write kanji, you might as well learn the correct stroke order. For me like 100% of the stroke orders were counter intuitive... but the more I practice the more I've started to get a feel for it. I think putting more effort into spoken Japanese will help you learn basic kanji (it's weird, but that's how it worked for me). However, sometimes the more 'quirky' (no offense meant) stroke orders do tend to make a character more easily remembered.

If it's any consolation, I've met plenty of Japanese kids with terrible stroke order... and I think it's an indication of poor writing skills to be honest. I've noticed that a lot of Japanese kids have more trouble writing enough kanji rather than substituting what would usually be written in hiragana with its kanji equvilant... although I have seen that as well.

But ya, Kyle that's interesting how you said that there are different groups of people who believe differently about these things. I suppose English is no different in that respect. I talked to a Japanese person who swears that stroke orders for certain kanji were different when they were growing up. I certainly have no idea though.

Here is my personal opinion regarding this. Remember I said "personal".

おもしろい, as someone with your level of Japanese proficiency could tell from its sounds, is an originally Japanese word. We did not borrow it from Chinese. We had the word long before we first encountered the Chinese. Even though we did not have a writing system back then, the word existed.

When we met the Chinese over 1,000 years ago and discovered kanji, we kind of went crazy over it. I would liken, to an extent, this to the recent popularity of kanji in the West among some people.

We tried to write Japanese using kanji only but that never worked for obvious reasons such as the vast differences in pronunciation and grammar between Japanese and Chinese. The two langugaes are not even linguistically related to each other. This fact lead to the invention of the kana so we would be able to actually write Japanese for the first time in the history of our nation and its language.

The word 面白い, as opposed to おもしろい, was a pure invention of some intellectual of that age. It probably looked good at first but its built-in problems were also there from the beginning because 面 means "face" and 白, "white" when the word's meaning is "funny". What was intended in assigning those two kanji was that if you see/hear something funny, you laugh and if you laugh, your face looks brighter.

After over 1,000 years, many Japanese, scholars and amateurs alike, are wondering if we should keep these creative "inventions". Writing the originally Japanese word おもしろい as 面白い (= "white-face-esque ") carries a clearly different connotation from writing in kanji the words borrowed directly from Chinese, such as 天気、月光、可能、外国、感動, etc.

Thus, those who are more conscious about these historical and linguistic matters, would prefer to write some words without using kanji. Those who could not care less would still have a choice. Everyone still has a way to write "funny" in Japanese. Who is to say which group is right? All I know is that we just disagree AND that I personally never will write おもしろい using kanji because it simply looks "wrong" to me. Besides, I always learned to write it in kana in school right here in Japan.

Wow thank you very much. Your explanation open a wide new world in the writing system. I didn't know there were such way of thoughts...a deeper step into Japanese culture.

Interesting. It's kind of like JRR Tolkien except an entire country of such people.

For those of you who do not know what I'm talking about, Tolkien, the author of The Lord of the Rings, was a linguist by profession. Apparently he wasn't a huge fan of so many French words having pushed out Old English/Germanic words from the vocabulary, so he found ways around using so many French-based words.

For example, Bilbo Baggins lives at "Bag End." This is obviously a Germanic-originated English word. The modern English word is "cul-de-sac," which is French for, literally, "bag end/bottom." This is a cul-de-sac: File:Cul-de-Sac cropped.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (for some reason the IMG tags aren't working for me right now so I can't embed it)

This is the type of street Bilbo's Bag End was.

So we see Tolkien finding ways to use Germanic English words over Frankish English words.

Anyway, just a tangent.