Strongly agree. I hope what I was about to say is not going to offend anyone, but why would you (Tenchu) make a comment like that? As mentioned, stretching provides many benefit, and no one said anything about kicking high and stretches.

Many don't have the gift you have to be able to kick high without stretching.

Kicking high is one thing, but doesn't all exercise and sport ask their athelete to stretch prior? Flexibility give you more impulsive power, while many consider "kick" alone is a form of dyanmic stretches, the "pulling" of your tendon is very different from the "pulling" of your muscle.

Something more scientific
If you are not flexible enough and even if you are, but your muscles is not in a relax "stretched" state, you won't be able to generate enough power, simple because as you kick, its MORE than your tendon thats being pulled, but the muscle, the muscle will react to this pull and contrapt. As a result, your own muscle becomes your enemies' defense, as now you can't kick as strong as you could. The other problem is that, if you do this repeatedly, you start building up tight muscle, not the type that you think you can show off with, but the type that is a form of an injuries. With kick, your glut (BUTT), is extremely vulnerable to this kind of injuries, long term kicking without proper stretches WILL damage this glut muscle, the tightening is known as Piriformis Symdrome (spelleing)... Its a long term problem that cannot be easily fixed, some have to go through surgery to have the muscle detached

High kicks are nice and great, but for the most part useless (sorry). In a fight the basic technique are usually the most useful

Concerning Muay Thai, they are great, and I don't know if they do stretches in class, but I have at leat 6 muay thai student that joined my class to learn how to strecht......

This certainly from an outsiders viewpoint when it comes to kicks, but even when I was weight training in college, which did not require any flexibility, an emphasis was placed on stretching at the beginning of the work out because of what you've described. If the muscles and tendons have not been stretched, there is less blood flow and flexibility than there would be otherwise. Thus there are less chemical resources for the muscles to use - hence less power and more risk of injury. Aside from flexibility being a general, life-long, health issue, why wouldn't you stretch to put your muscles at peak readiness? It doesn't take that long and it will pay off in the long run.

Thanks for the backup :) You know, I've been teaching MA for quite a number of years, stretched athelete are also more responsive and have faster reaction... I weight train too, with MA in place, it makes it even more important because of muscle tightness

I want to learn Wushu, Jujitsu/Judo, and Kendo

Well if you're getting better it could possibly be due to increased strength and refined technique rather than a major improvement in flexibility. Sure you may be seeing gains... but the way in which you're training you'll never achieve the kind of kicks that I find amazing... which is OK because Muay Thai doesn't stress these kinds of kicks as these sorts of kicks are not practical to use in real life

Bottom line is you can't dismiss stretching... I'll leave you with this to think about.... the average Senior Wushu student or Black Belt TaekwonDo practitioner can hold their leg up and do all sorts of crazy things with it before putting it back on the ground. The Muay Thai fighter generally can't. Stretching is a big part of training in Wushu and Taekwondo and high kicks a more important technique in the art.

I agree.

In a real life situation, your opponent may not always be willing to "kick joust".

This was the statement: godwine: "High kicks are nice and great, but for the most part useless (sorry). In a fight the basic technique are usually the most useful"

This was your response: Tenchu: "Arogance will get you NOWHERE. With punches it is so fast paced and you normal have to land a combo to get a KO, but kick jousting is about timing, and you only have to land one to win. It all just takes practice."

Highs kicks are a powerful thing to have in your repertoire, don't get me wrong. But when will you use it outside the ring or demonstration? Rarely -- if not never.
It is highly unlikely that you will get the opportunity to execute a High Kick in an informal fight; therefore, it is somewhat useless, in terms of martial value.
That is the point I was simply trying to express.

I understand what you're saying; however...

A thug on the street isn't bound by rules and formalities like a professional in the ring or gym is.

People tend to "forget" their styles in street fights because they understand the reality. They accept the fact that it is no longer a game, and that attempting fancy moves can result in defeat.

Sometimes throwing a barrage of simple, controlled punches is better than waiting for the opportunity to perform a High Kick. That is simply the way I see it.

Tenchu has a point, most Martial artists forget their styles on the street due to poor psycological training. A truely strong Martial artist can fight anywhere, implementing his style to the situation not the other way around.


People tent to get wrapped up in being "Martial Artists" and forget that Martial Arts are a millitary art. It is MENT to be used on the street, in truely deadly combat. And the reason we train so hard is so that when it comes down to who lives and who dies in a fight, we get to live. When we strip away all the philosophy and symantics where all just fighters.

As far as using kicks in a street fight. Oh hell yes it's done. Maby I'm bias becouse I'm a student of Taekwondo, but we are tought everyday how to street fight, and yes we implement kicks, pretty frequently.

I wasn't trying to be arrogant, that simply was a point of view. You are juging my ability to kick base my my expression of my opinion which was made based on 18 years of training.

FYI i teach tod. I have a third den in tod, I am able to kick higher than my head when standing and can kick over 180 with a jump. Highs kick is not my problem. I also trains in muay Thai for 5 years and a load of other arts

i am simply suggesting that stretches are good and it prevents injuries.

sorry TKD not tod the auto complete feature on the phone sucks

How do you plan on planting a High Kick on a hostile individual in the streets? As you said yourself, instead of having to throw a combo of punches for a K.O., if you land a single High Kick you can accomplish a K.O. in one shot. It is a matter of timing and practice. So, again, how do you expect to execute a High Kick without waiting? The answer is you don't; you wait for the opportunity to arrive ~ "timing". Otherwise, you abandon it and resort to other techniques -- or risk getting your ass tackled in mid-motion.

As I understand, it is illegal to tackle in a Muay Thai match. Muay Thai fighters generally train to fight other Muay Thai fighters... That is the basic concept of the sport. Hence my comment: "In a real life situation, your opponent may not always be willing to "kick joust"."


This was your other statement:
This was my response to that statement:
You're basing your argument on the assumption that it is easier to land a High Kick on a Thug on the streets. And I am simply pointing out that it is not necessarily "easier", because, in the streets, they may never give you the chance to throw your leg into the air to perform a High Kick.

I'm not saying it is impossible; I'm saying it is improbable.
You, Tenchu, are free to do whatever you want. I'm just expressing my opinion.

"Rejecting kicks and ring-based MA"? I suggest you rethink that conclusion. Or better yet ~ read over some of my earlier posts in this thread.

I agree. A punch is still a punch; a kick is still a kick. We are all bound by the same physics; therefore, it isn't wise to immediately assume that a stranger on the streets isn't going to put up his own fight.
Rules of the ring favor the use of High Kicks. Street fights are a different story.

I'm not entirely sure who you're directing this at, but never did I say that kicking was not done on the streets.

MMA is a great workout, good way to stay in shape
and being a ninja doesnt hurt ^_^

Me? I stretch before and after every training session as well as when doing something idle (watching TV etc) The sort of stretching I do before training is different to the sort I do afterwards of course as you can hurt yourself if you don't stretch the proper way.

Rather than stretching being over-rated... I really suspect that you are under-rating it. I simply don't believe that your ability to kick at head height and hold it for 3 seconds today had little to do with stretching. Chances are the little amount of time spent on stretches you did in training combined with maybe a natural predisposition to being flexible were sufficient. Also what usually happens with flexibility is that rapid gains are made initially but you will reach a plateau. That is where I'm at now. My stretching regime is seeing results but slowly. Of course as was mentioned earlier, core strength is important too.

And you could probably do all TKD kicks well now if you can kick at head height... But TKD practitioners goal is not only to execute the technique but eventually to shoot multiple kicks out with the one foot at the same height before the foot hits the ground as well as hold out their kick for a lot longer than 3 seconds or whatever it is you can do (One TKD black belt pattern has you holding your foot out at head height and rotating 180 degrees then without losing height shooting of a side-kick at the end of the 180!). You are kidding yourself if you think you'll reach that level without a flexibility regime that doesn't include stretching.

(In case you're interested here's the black belt pattern I'm talking about)
YouTube - International Taekwondo Federation (ITF) Pattern Ju Che

Sigh, I really don't want to say this, but for someone who is passionate about martial art and want to get strong, that is an extremely poor learning attitude.

You realize that you are almost the only person who thinks that stretches are not of any use, so you basically is declaring that you are the only person who is right and everyone else here who made a comment are wrong.

Again, our view is only that, stretches is a preventive exercise, that can help you gain flexibility so that you don't hurt yourself when you try to exceed specific range of movement.

If you truly are someone who want to help others, you shouldn't be denying helpful exercises.

As far as high kick is concern, all i said was "FOR THE MOST PART". I never said its totally useless.

I train part time because I have a job that brings in 150K a year. Martial art is my hobby and passion but not my priority.... Though, For a good 5 years, I used to train AND teach for up to 7 hours a day for 7 days a week.......

To make you happy, sure, part time sucks, you are right in all aspect.... there you go

You're right, Tenchu. You win.
I forfeit.

Well let's change the subject.


What are your aspirations in Martial Arts? Do you want to be a Sensei? A Champion Competetor? Own your own school? Or just make it your hobby?

Personally, I use it for self defense, and bragging rights. If I do find myself on a shortage of cash, I'll think about entering tournaments, but I don't see that happening any time soon. I prefer to be unrestricted when it comes to martial arts/fighting.

To me, martial art is one of those thing that i considered "Love it if its a hobby, but would hate it if i need to feed my families with it"....

i did taekwondo when i was in elementary, it was a nice experience. loved sparring and kicking the pads. but swithed to judo in high school. back then when i got into a fight(not that im in a gang or something) its usually because the other party cant keep its cool, i dont think i could kick them or punch them, id rather have them submit.

Why can't you kick or punch them? Yeah, submission and grappling technique are great for street situation, but striking technique (IF used properly and within reasonable force) should be equally as effective

Don't get the wrong idea.

Yeah... you were supposed to quote chaseme I believe :vsign:

i was in highschool and like said its usually because the other party cant keep its cool. so fights are usually individuals. assuming that they still come at me after i let them get out of a submission, i think i could still get them into submission hopefully

even if its one vs many i dont think knowing boxing or muay thai would make any significant difference. lets be realistic here have you ever beat the crap out of 2 or more person attacking simultaneously?
for me if thats the case there is always running away:D

I am still a bit stunned to see martial artist getting involved in street situation, shouldn't we have more self control? :) I though we were all trained to control ourselves?

You know, where I grew up, it is illegal for a well train artist to be involved in a street fight, because our body is considered as a weapon

Tenchu, I do agree that it is likely that your opponent will be more than one person, and I do more striking than anything else myself, but my post wasn't to doubt submission/grappling/throw, its more of a question to chaseme why did he felt that submission is more useful in a street situation

BUT, submission/grappling/throw are also good against multiple oppnents, only an idiot will spend more than one move on each opponent on a street situation. Its not like you are trying to wrestle him to the ground like you would on the UFC.

All arts are useful in any and all situation IF one is trained properly, its all about how much and how well you are trained, you can't generalize which technique or art is better, all arts are useful (with one exception, which I don't want to go into details) as long as the person practicing it knows what he/she is doing

Tenchu, mind telling us how old you are?

Ok thanks, that will explain the attitude and behavior...

probably i didnt make my self clear.
i was in highschool i mention im not in any gang. so no "street fight".
most fights i got involve with are with peers or in the same circle.

with judo i could beat my opponent without leaving marks or bruises which means less to no sanction. since i didnt actually engage in a fight but still effectively defend myself.
with punching and kicking even if i tried to defend myself the fact that i engage in a fight doesnt change.

when i say 2vs1 im thinking of three people almost equal in physical activites and the 1 do martial arts. not 2nerds vs a pro boxer, i know i have a flaw in my argument here but being realistic what are the chances of 2 nerds picking a fight with Pacquiao.

Now that is something I completely understand, not an excuse to avoid it, but I always hated it too. Its a matter of patience, at least in my case. It always felt like wasting time and I wanted to get on with the meat of the exercise. But with time, and the force of an injury that had to be surgically repaired, I learned the patience to endure and even appreciate warm-ups, expecially the stretching.

Since it was leg swing you were using for stretching, its possible that the swing itself could have been part of the problem with the hamstrings. I am just giving an educated guess here because luckily I have never had problems with that group of muscles, so far all my muscle injuries have been related to the shoulders. Though you didn't really describe the hamstring problem a sudden stretch versus a gradual, steady pull on the muscle is more prone to damage. Its the reason why in callesthenics they no longer teach you to bounce when doing toe-touches or other movements that stretch cold tissue. You could have been pushing the stretch to the edge of its limit by the momentum/inertia of the swing before the the actual stretch of the muscle had warmed the area with extra blood flow.

Just my thoughts if you want to try a slow stretch with the same, but contolled arc and see how it goes.

No no, i wasn't taking a stab at you for fighting at school, we were all once young and stupid

There could be countless possibilities where you can get in a situation to have to fight with 2 people, and I do like throwing techniques too. I teach quite a bit of it to my student as well, just that I am better with my striking technique for the most part

Now, better question, aside from Tenchu who was taught to "Unleash" and be the best in all situation, what would have cause enough conflict for 2 people coming at you at the same time? Outside of being robbed, why sould 2 people out of nowhere decide to pick a fight with you? Is it something that can be avoided in the first place?

I guess, theres all sorts of situations where you can get attacked by more than one guy. Gang abushes, someone that needs a boost.After a Tounament I had a couple of guys the wanted just to beat my ass so they could prove they could do it. I mean while it's not commonplace even in fights, it does happen outside of being robbed.

Gang Ambushes, ok sure, what what have you done to trigger it? Like the example that Tenchu pointed out, that will definitely trigger something.

Avoiding (or running) a fight doesn't make you a wimp or "PUSSY".

Tenchu, I am not trying to insult you, don't get me wrong.... lets just leave it at that...

Well in my area we have the Crips and the Bloods. If you go to the bloods territory wearing blue. You get jumped. Plain and simple. They don't ask questions. And Vice Versa. Now While I don't live in direct Gang territory and where I live in reality, it's just alot of hype stuff like that does happen.

Sorry that's "Crypts". And though they originated on the west coast of the U.S., they are not isolated there. You have the same mentality in the inner cities of most urban areas, whether its gangstas, gang bangers, skinheads or tongs, there are areas where common sense, not cowardice, should have you thinking twice about calling attention to yourself.

True. sry I got the name wrong. But I don't know much about the gangbangers. You know thinking about it, I don't even know what I'm saying. Just ignorant I guess.

I belive martial arts is a very good thing if properly practiced and very healthy for the mind and can sharpen it as well and the virtues can bring peaceful mind and good clear mind for judgement and other things :vsign:

My uncle is Famous at Martial arts and pro wreslting in Japan, his name is Nobuhiko Takada, have you heard of him:vsign:

Lmao. Kitten got owned. xD

oh really?
I'm not into プロレス or fighting in general, but I've heard about him. He's one of the few wrestlers who succesfully moved from wrestling to serious fighting series, and he had some legal problems concerning his son (I believe his son couldn't obtain japanese citizenship because his mother was american).
If it's the same Takada, it's quite a coincidence! :mtongue:

His sons are allowed in Japan now, they are cute, but have not seen his family in a little while. I saw my uncle fight before, he lose, but I was still proud of him. He has his own dojo here:vsign: