If people are going to act out their game fantasies in real life, rape isn't necesarily the worst one.

Doom has been a favorite before... just lucky those guys wern't skilled with a chainsaw, and used guns instead. GTA has chainsaws, too. Or even some basic Ninja game, like Tenchu; I doubt sneaking up behind people with a sword and cutting their throats will go down well in the media, either.

Fact is, psychos are going to exist, games or not. They always have. Things like this have been common long before media existed. And even in countries where this media is still absent (Afghanistan, African countries), rape is a massive problem. Banning some nerds from jerking off in a particular way won't really change anything. If anything, they'll get bored with no porn left, and start to think of other ways to get their rocks off... who knows what they'll come up with...

Of course, clubs like from that school that exist and rape women, they arn't at all connected to pervert gaming. That is just plain criminal illegal. The only reason people connect clubs like that to things like this is they're activists trying to put some weight in their swing. This won't help reality in any way. In fact, it'd damage their cause; trying to tell people games are responsible for problematic communities which is complete bullshit; it will divert effort to try and fix insignificant problems where it should be being used to catch real criminals.

I think the biggest public concerns are that it may justify rape of men and women.

I've never watched the game, but I am presuming the rape game involves both sexes.

They will involve both sexes, but it will be mostly females.

But the idea that it will justify such a thing is delusional. I believe the kind of people who will do such a thing will exist even if the games are absent. I believe this because it's true... I mean, they always have!

If people in society cannot see the problem or reason why raping people is bad, then it isn't the games fault. It is a serious lack of cultural values/strength.

Why would you assume that?

I find your logic backwards here.

Rape is wrong.

So when packaged in a product that makes rape OK, if people can't see that rape is wrong, then the people are stupid.

Huh?

That is like saying racism is wrong, but if people can't see through a game that promotes racist stereotypes, then the consumer is as fault. So where is the repsonsibility of the game producers. By this logic they should have the right to make anything, and all responsibility falls on the consumer.

probably because its called rape GAMES. kinda like olympic games but instead of a medal your just scarred for life.

What I meant was, why would ozkai assume that men are the victims of rape as much as the women are in this genre?

probably because he's never been a woman before. but in terms of a game i think woman would do what it takes to win it. but sadly in real life its not the same thing, i know. my friend was raped when we were in elementary school and its a really terrible thing. i think ozkai is right about the game and men being more victims than woman, but in real life woman the real victims. game or not its really terrible and may rapists burn in hell.

I think you are not understanding what I am saying.

These are not really "games" but fantasy reenactments.

Men are not raped in these programs. Women and girls are.

How you can say "men being more victims than women" is beyond me.

I do agree with your sentiment about real rapists.

Ohhh. ok i get it now. your right then. well like i said whether its a game or not, rape is wrong. it should be pretty obvious to everyone in this thread that anything with the title rape in it is pretty weird.

RAPE IS WRONG. doesn't matter if you say "but its just a game", or "its just a fantasy of mine", doesnt change the fact that the fantasy is pretty disgusting and illegal if you give in to that urge. but look on the bright side. once your released from prison you get to be on a list and everyone knows where you live.

I appreciate it was late when you answered, but please re-read my original post. The points I made about GTA were that it is more detached from reality and that the victims are generic and have no personality. Same with the ninja games and so forth that other people mentioned. In those situations, the ability to fulfill those actions is difficult (lack of ninja skills, ability to fly helicopters, reset life when shot to bits by cops etc) and unfounded in reality. In the rape games you are technically an ordinary person. Take the stalking-of-a-train game; what man would believe they couldn't over power a 12 year old girl if they wanted to? That's a much smaller leap from fantasy to reality and it's dangerously small. The human mind is vastly suceptable to subtle messaging so even if a person IS still aware that rape is wrong and 'should remain in fantasy land' it will still alter, probably in some quite significant ways, the way they think about women and girls.

Again I highly disagree that it's not at least partially the responsibility of the game producers not to encourage this kind of thinking, especially as it has a higher risk OF drawing mentally unstable individuals to it, and then egging them on to acting out in real life than most commercial games. If a risk is there, it should be taken into account quite seriously.

I looked into this matter and seems all this fuss was because Amazon was selling a rape simulator called RapeLay.

As I understand only games that focus on raping (like the one above) will be banned and I have no objections against that, but if they start banning all the games that have rape as a plot point, then I going to disagree. I know some awesome games that have rape scenes in their stories and I don't want them to be banned.

Yeah, that's fair enough. Just doing a sweep ban of everything that mentions rape would be kind of backwards. Lj did that a while back with their NC-17 crackdown. Ended up banning a comm set up by and for survivors of sex abuse, and a discussion thread on Romeo and Juliet. Genius.

Someone once told me, however, that anime which features sex with little girls should not be a punishable crime, because no one gets hurt, it is innocent. But the same person said real pornography of little girls is wrong, because it effects someones life and hurts them.

I agreed with that person, but I don't agree with you here.

We should be allowed to produce what we want, so long as it hurts no one or infringes their space.

America does not burn books, or so I'm told. I am not American, but after living in a book burning country, Thailand, I've finnally come to appreciate a few things I've heard about America.

Not burning books should extend to all forms of media.

I didn't say it should be banned. I said "Rape is wrong.

So when packaged in a product that makes rape OK, if people can't see that rape is wrong, then the people are stupid.

Huh?"

I was questioning your logic in that respect.

Yes, but you may also argue that walking up to a innocent civilian from behind and hacking them up with a chainsaw is wrong, so games with this in it should also be banned, right?

There is a difference between fiction and reality, especially when the fiction is harmless.

I've got no problem playing games that kill civis in fiction, even though I know it is wrong to do it in real life. Why should I think other games with "wrong" things in it are so bad? I'm not stupid.

I never said the games should be banned, but let's not pretend that they are anything different than they are: fantasy fetish fulfillment.

So, is it wrong to feed your fantasy?

Personally, I like self control. But saying it is wrong would be saying all pornography or such is wrong. Perhaps even just normal anime and games are fantasy fullfillment with a bit of fetish in there.

Not all pornography is about fetishes and illegal acts. Please don't put words in my mouth. My point was that you seemed to say that the game producers don't have any responsibility if their consumers can't see that rape is wrong. What I was saying is that they cannot deny responsibility because the goal of the game is to rape, consequence free. Even GTA has consequences in the game. There is never a question that the actions the player takes aren't illegal or have consequences. These games are different, as the girl you rape will eventually "like it". I think that shows questionable judgement as a producer as it sends what I think is a dangerous message.

It's fiction, MMM, it doesn't matter what the message is, it isn't suppossed to be converted into reality.

Of course, it should be exclusive for an adult audience, but if an adult is unable to see that something like this si wrong, it is a psychological problem, and not the fault of a producer.

What I am saying is, to say something that is wrong is right and then blame the consumer for being confused is irresponsible.

Are they saying it is right?

Are they saying it is wrong?

When you have time give us that list of games, TheLastFortnight.

This statement sounds really funny, like it was a personal experice with you tenchu XDDD.
Anyways its not about scoreing with a woman at all, most chicks don't like being tighed up and spanked with a horse whip *too bad*.

I don't think people should blame games or the maker, thats like trying to sue a prostetute for being what they are. People should just raise there kids better instead of spoiling them and giving them the ideas that they could do anything in the world. When in reality they don't know how to do shiv so they have no other choice but to work as a garbage employee.
Alot of people today let there emotions guide there actions instead of being tactful with the things they do and that causes sloppyness.
Its what the person thinks is wrong and right, (didn't we all have this same debat about videogames in general?). Its not really up to other people to decide, we could take away everything filled with rape and torture but people will still do the same things and it will always be the same people. That is the way they are, for some sex isn't important but for others it makes there day.

You know most of the times the people who commit rape, it isn't really for sex with them its just the good feeling of forcing something upon others.


You have such faith in people MMM.

There are legal rapes, not in the US but when I was serving in Iraq a woman who was just walking alone could be takin away and raped. That was legal but they didn't learn it from video games, they were taught it was okay.
Now its a little better by the US standards, not many bad things go on there anymore, just the usual deaths and drive bys.


Actually you know in the US its more men that are raped?, you know why? because of jails.
Sure there are a few rapes here and there on the outside with women but its not as much as the repeated rapes going on behind the scenes of the jail house walls. Most men do not report it too, isn't that a surprise . . . not really.
Even on the outside boys are raped, I say boys because they are younger then 13.

I don't know what is funnier; the idea that you believe mature adults need to be told this is wrong, or that you're suggesting the possibility it is apropriate to label everything with stickers "right" and "wrong".

Personally, I'm already pretty fucking pissed off at the censorship that goes on in this world. I don't want any more of it to be passed.

Which part of "I never said it should be banned" did you miss?

MMM,

Just to clarify something, have you ever been to the Ikebukuro Mandarake or the female-oriented floors of animate, k-books, etc in Akiba or Den Den? Plenty of software on those floors are dedicated to a female audience acting as a male character raping another male. Usually, just as in your example on a previous page, the male being raped comes to "enjoy" it. There are even a few I have seen that are female dominating games, role-reversing the issue at hand.

These floors are often packed with women of various age groups, and of various levels of attractiveness (on standard, "traditional" views on what is attractive).

Yes, the majority is clearly male character on female character for a male player audience, this is not the entire picture. And I have met several women who play these games as well. Surprising as it may be to some, they personally enjoy projecting themselves into the place of the female characters. Even though, clearly, they would not enjoy being raped.

I'm not claiming you said it should be banned, MMM. I'm trying to point out the annoyance of the idea and the retardation of the idea that adults need to be reminded that this shit ain't cool in real life. I mean, how stupid are people?

Damn, Japan is full of weirdos. I want to see this stuff myself.

I have been to the Mandarake stores in Osaka, and I have seen the women perusing the doujinshi and yaoi shelves, though I will admit I never looked closely enough to see female-on-male rape fantasies.

I did recently read Gakuen Prince that I found a bit disturbing not becuase it is a female on male gang rape manga, and not because it is a female on make gang rape manga comedy, but because it is a female on male gang rape manga comedy that has been released mainstream in the US only because it is female on male, and not the other way around.

A part of me says of women find the fantasy of rape role-reversal empowering I am a little more forgiving, as women tend to be the victims of rape, not men...in the same way black comedians can get away with making fun of the way white people dance, but the opposite isn't true because (at least in the US) whites aren't the direct targets of racism the way blacks are.

But then a larger part of me says, rape is rape. In a game like GTA, you know you are a "bad guy". But in these rape fantasies, the rapist is the "good guy", and for me that's where a line is crossed. Again, I never said ban them, but let's not pretend they are something they are not. They are rape fetish fulfillment programs.
We can say "a true rapist would get no enjoyment out of these" and maybe that is true, but as a gamer and anime fan, I would not get any enjoyment out of "playing a game" where the goal is to rape someone and make her like it.

I like this bit. Good stuff.

Have you played San Andreas? You're actually a pretty good guy. The game teaches some good things, as well. Loyalty, courage, brothership, and a keen sense of justice.

In the game, you're free to do what you want, and you can freely do some pretty screwed up things, but on the mission, you're always dealing out to people who really deserve it.

It was a step up from Vice City, where the wog was just a thug. I liked San Andreas/Carl way better. I found his character inspirational, really.

I am not adding my opinion at all, MMM. I just wanted to make sure that the fact that there are rape games with female players as the intended demographic was "entered into evidence" so to speak. The same with the fact that there are women who enjoy projecting themselves into rape fantasies as the victims, even though they would clearly not enjoy the actual experience. As long as those facts are marked exhibit A and B, I will withdraw back into lurking mode.

Yes, that is a good point.

It really punts the idea that these games socially downtread women when women occasionally take part.

Sure, I acknowledge the fact that there is a percentage of titles that role-reverse and women are raping men. There are also ones where animals are involved, robots, sea life, Nazis, aliens, insects and fairy tail creatures like pixies and fairies.

That doesn't dilute my point, however.

That wasn't my point, since most titles are men raping men, but are for female players in my above examples. The issue here isn't who on who, but the fact that "on" is occurring at all, and the gender/sex of the player demographic.

My point was that there are sizable numbers of women that I have personally witnessed purchase doujinshi and games of said activity. With being in Japan as long as I have been, and with my normal trips to find Utena and KOR stuff, I would now say, that number is likely to be in the low hundreds just within my personal experience. I imagine a fair bit of multiplication would not be unreasonable.

That's all I am saying.

Tsuwabuki would you go so far as to say chances are the vast majority of rape fantasy "players" are men?

What I think is not important. Whether or not the fact that female players exist is relevant or not is up to you to decide. If the number seems small enough to you for you to dismiss it as irrelevant, you are free to do so, as long as you back up why it should be considered so. I just felt it hadn't been considered by either side at all, and to me, that was an egregious oversight.

Freedom isn't free, and so if we want to live in a world that endorses software where the "hero" is a rapist and protect the rights of people to play it, we have to accept the fact that there could be negative consequences. These negative consequences may be isolated incidents, or they could contribute to a culture (or sub-culture) that (consciously or subconsciously) believes that somewhere in their hearts women enjoy being raped.

The rape fantasy may always exist, for whatever reason, but to endorse the fictional fulfillment of that fantasy means we also have to prepare for and accept the consequences that may come with it.

Ah. You bring up one of my favorite quotes, MMM.

"Those that sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither." - Ben Franklin