And this is once again where you're saying it's okay to judge us just because there's less of us.



I'm not anti-tourist, I'm anti-unnaceptance. I don't see why foreigners can't live here without the pretext or notion that we all must be tourists because we're not Japanese.


Well, it did take me over a month to find an apartment, after several rejections for being gaijin. Or that I paid more up front for my apartment than my Japanese friend who moved into the same building (same apartment style). Granted, those aren't "tourist status," they're gaijin related though.
Poor service to me would be speaking to me in broken English as I'm fully well speaking in Japanese to them. Or being heckled by people on the streets who specifically target gaijins for their shops/wares.



No, it was a correlation between not being Japanese and given a handout, compared to giving a minority in the states a handout for no reason.



I only sound like that because you're provoking my viewpoint without any legitimate merit to yours, IMO.
If voicing one complaint turns one disgruntled, then I don't know what it would take to be up to your standards.



So is assuming I don't belong because I'm not Japanese.

What's the difference? Assumptions are still ignorant, and they perpetuate stereotypes. These lead to racism.

In my opinion, yes. It is understood that rice is a major staple in the Japanese diet, but with that type of connotation, the question is an ignorant one.

I absolutely hate being mistaken for a tourist, but am going to side with MMM on this one.

For one, in the case of being mistaken for a tourist - the comparisons that are being used are completely skewed. Assuming you are a tourist is not a negative assumption. It`s a pretty neutral one. Being a tourist doesn`t mean you`re assumed to be "inferior" - it just means you`re a tourist. The other examples you are tossing out are linked to negative issues.

Remove any racial issues, and imagine that you work in a cleaning shop. For the past so many years you have worked there, every person who brought in a red coat to be cleaned asked to take advantage of the free offer for bleed protection. Chances are, after a while, you`re going to start just adding the service on whenever you see a red coat.
Is this discrimination? Are you judging the coat, assuming it is going to bleed color? Or are you just adding on the free service that everyone else has asked for so far?
Assuming that people want the service is a far better option than assuming they may not want it, then being complained about later because they didn`t know it existed.
Chances are, with the discount you were given, people who later found out that there had been a discount but didn`t receive it complained. Who is going to refuse an offer of a discount? What is the point of asking? In a clothing store (not "designer"), those type of discounts aren`t the norm. There is a fair chance that if someone is a tourist, they may have their passport on hand when shopping for very expensive things - but maybe not normally priced clothing. Potentially lose business by telling someone there is a discount but we need to confirm your visa, prompting the person to possibly stop buying to return later with their information (I know everyone is supposed to carry their passports around, but the reality is that most are stored away in hotel safes). A customer that leaves is likely a lost sale, as a tourist may not have the time to come back.

99% of the westerners I meet in Japan are tourists or here for short term stays. Is it wrong of me to assume that they are not here long term until I see some indication otherwise?
For someone who has lived in Japan for years and years, who has all their life here, who owns a home here, etc... Someone here for a year on a study or teaching stint is hardly different than a tourist.

I don`t know how long you`ve been in Japan and how long you are staying - but it`s kind of funny how the people who throw the biggest fits about issues and toss out the "I pay taxes too!" thing are the people who go home after a year or two.
I`m going to make the horrible and awful guess that you probably looked like a tourist - but not because of your race. Long term residents simply do not look like tourists, and tourists do not look like long term residents. In the same way that it`s pretty famous for a New Yorker to be able to spot a tourist or new resident to the city, it`s not all that hard to spot the differences between someone who really lives in Japan and someone who is here on the short term.
I think this is the difference where I am spoken to in Japanese, quite normally, while a friend who has been here for close to a year but plans to leave soon constantly gets the tourist treatment. We`re both the same race, not all that different in coloring (although I think her eyes are blue while mine are a lighter hazel color), and both have mixed race children... But the treatment is significantly different. There is indeed a tourist "look".

An honest question - how good is your Japanese? How clear is your accent? This makes a huge difference in whether the other person decides that attempting communication in English would be more efficient than continuing in Japanese. I can`t judge in your case, but a lot of people don`t realize that their Japanese isn`t as clear as they think it is... Just like the other side doesn`t realize their English isn`t as clear as they believe it is.

Targeting the group most likely to buy sounds more like a good business decision than "racism" to me. People are heckled on the street regardless of race - the shops/wares that are targeting you because you`re a foreigner are doing so because foreigners are most likely to buy whatever they are offering. Should they target a market they don`t sell well in?
Is it wrong for discount airline tickets to be advertised in English language magazines? The same idea is in play. OMG! It`s racism! They`re assuming I want to travel outside of Japan because I`m a foreigner - shame on them!

MMM gave an absolutely wonderful example. That`s a normal question, asked all the time, and one of the questions people study to answer in English class.
You`re the one reading racism into it.

Really, you may not realize it, but you are indeed dropping into disgruntled territory. I don`t think anyone realizes it at first, if ever. But you are pulling out the exact complaints that are repeated over and over and over by the short-term-but-longer-than-tourist crowd who first realize that Japan is NOT a melting pot and that they are ALWAYS going to stand out to some extent.

This has become a bit of a strange argument...

making assumptions based on looks is necessary to live, we all do it...

I spoke to a random Japanese stranger on the street a few days ago and she happened to not understand a word I said, even though my Japanese is pretty good now.
Then she replied in perfect English saying "Yeah.. I'm not from here, just visiting, I'm American.."

I assumed, based on her looks alone, that she was like 99.9999% of other Japanese people I come across.
Did I do something wrong? no...

Japanese people talk to foreigners in English just because they are white, but what if he's French and doesn't speak a word of English? Or what if he's born in Japan and just like them?
Did they do something wrong? no...

I honestly like being confused with a tourist because I can put them in their place in Japanese and I still haven't gotten over the enjoyment of doing that lol, in fact it only gets better as my Japanese gets better and I find better ways to do it ^^b

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Regarding Japanese people thinking they are better than everyone else.
Patriotism is a completely different issue, many patriotic people everywhere in the world love their country but still don't think they are better than others, they just prefer their home over another. This is the category Japanese people fall into, not some weird belief of superiority that is being propagated by western minds.

This is your opinion propagated by your Western Mind.

Actually in my opinion patriotism is directly related to feelings of superiroty and racism. Patriotism is basically pride. It is pretty much impossible to have pride without comparison. It is one of the reasons that pride is almost universally condemned by all major religions (I'm not religious but this is one of the few things about religion I actually agree with). Pride in your country is only possible by comparison to other countries. It's not something that you are necessarily concious of but you can not really have pride without comparison. And herein lies the slippery slope towards nationalism and racism. The more pride or patriotism is instilled in any populace the more likely they are to believe their country and culture and people are better than others. This leads to feelings of superiority and if nationalistic fervour is whipped up into enough of a frenzy then this is when one group of people can go and do some truly horrendous acts against other peoples. Patriotism can be useful in pulling a people together as a nation but it has it's dangers and downsides.

I don't really believe that Japan has any big problem with over zealous patriotism though. It once did and there is definitely still a legacy of that but on the whole I think they are a fairly humble people. There is a Japanese way of doing things though and they aren't generally too keen on changing those ways. This can be good and bad.

I'm not really sure how to answer to this, it feels kind of like you're saying "no you're a fat-head!" lol :mtongue:

But seriously, I had misconceptions propagated by the western world in my mind before coming to Japan, and every other country I've visited also, but after arriving they were all basically shattered by the truth and reality of the situation. Including this superiority nonsense...

I'm glad we see eye to eye on this.
Most countries and cultures have their own way of doing things and are resistant to change, I don't thing this is particular to Japan, though.

About patriotism, in many cases it does get blown out of proportion.
I am proud of being Canadian, patriotic some would say, but I don't think Canada is better than other places, I just like it's good points and can put up with it's bad ones. :)
(oh and I agree with the pride part being bad, it gets taken too far and out of context)

Here is the problem. What JUDGEMENT has been made? You were IDENTIFIED as a tourist. That identification was mistaken. When I see a person with long hair and a skirt my mind identifies the person as a woman. 99+% of the time my mind's identification is correct, so I don't question it every time, or else I am going to spend all day wondering if everyone is a woman, or a man in woman's clothing.

Every so often I will be wrong, but just to get through the day, I am willing to take those odds.

This is exactly what happened to you. You were misidentified, and you corrected it.

What's your damage?

Again, you are mistaking misidentification for unacceptable. Explain in detail how you were treated as unacceptable.

Again, welcome to life as a foreigner in Japan. You can thank the decades of foreigners before you who bailed out on leases and left their apartments in condemnable conditions. Yes, it is not fair you have been judged for the people before you. That's life in a society where it is not the law that everyone must be treated equally. Again, you are applying your Western standards to a non-Western society. How many times do you need to get burned before you stop putting your hand in the fire?

You are unbelievable. You would be offended if someone tried to speak to you in your native language? That is incredible!

I am glad you moved there now, and not in the early 90s when I was there. I heard almost daily how amazing my Japanese was. People tried to speak to me in English all the time. I was offered a fork once at a ramen shop.

I was really thrilled to go to Osaka earlier this year and was slightly thrilled at the end of the day to realize in all the shops where I had talked to shop people, not once had anyone misunderstood me, commented on my Japanese, or complimented me. I kind of felt like finally foreigners have been accepted as speakers of English. This is a new idea, in the last 20 years or so, and I am happy Japan can adjust so quickly.


Discounts for tourists are pretty normal in Japan. Ever heard of the Japan Rail Pass? Don't they have that in Europe, too, to encourage tourism? A "discount" is not a "handout". Again, I don't know what you are complaining about.

Tourists complain about taxi drivers in New York and Washington DC for OVERCHARGING foreigners. I have never heard of someone complaining about being undercharged before.

You raised a fuss because a shop worker tried to give you a discount that in actuality you didn't deserve. Just as 99+% of the foreigners in Tokyo are tourists and business travelers, 99+% of people wouldn't complain about being offered a discount based on the fact they appeared to be a tourist. It is called good business practices. You are that "less than 1%" that is going to, for some yet unexplained reason, be offended. Their business model is solid.

You are not disgruntled because you made a fuss when it was probably not deserved. You are disgruntled because you are not seeing why you look a little silly complaining about it.

Tourist = "don't belong"?
This is a new paradigm to me.

Like I said above, if you see something walk like a duck and quack like a duck, chances are your brain is going to identify it as a duck. Every so often you will be wrong. The H&M shop staff was wrong.

So want to take it to the Supreme Court? Great. What are your damages?

For a crime to have been committed, there must be damages. What are yours?

I have enjoyed all your posts up until now, Wings, and I am really excited and happy to read about your adventures to Japan. But even if you don't see it, you are turning into "that guy" I talked about.

People in Japan talk all the time about how much rice they eat or their sons eat in a day, how many times a day they cook rice, etc. This is normal conversation. If you think assuming a Japanese man eats rice makes you racist or ignorant, it may be time to head back to the old U.S. of A, or allow your mind to "open up" to a different way of thinking where people understand that we, as human beings, DO racial profile all day. Our brains DO make assumptions and decisions without having 100% of the facts on a moment-to-moment basis.

I would like to address this comment up to here. I don't always agree with what GoNative has to say, but at least you don't shoot from the hip and put some thought into your posts (as all the other posters in this thread do, I believe).

However this comment reminded me of being in Japan during the World Cup, geez, maybe 5 years ago.

I have told this story before, but me and a former student of mine were in Osaka during the World Cup and were looking for a place to drink a couple beers and watch Germany VS USA. It took us about 30 minutes of walking around Umeda, but we finally found a tiny bar showing the match. It had an L-shaped bar that seated maybe eight people, and two, two-person seats along the long-side of the L's wall. We sat down at one of the tables and ordered a couple Buds. A few moments later we looked at the short-side of the L, and saw two young gentlemen wearing Team Germany jerseys and drinking German beer.

It was a good game, and we were both cheering for our respective country's teams. There were no one else in the tiny bar besides the bartender, and over the couple hours we were there several beers were downed. In the end Germany won (I think it was 2-0, but don't remember now) and at the end we finally acknowledged our "rival" fans with a free beer and a kampai in congratulations.

The Germans left the bar before we did, and the bartender admitted he was frightened that he was going to be in the scene of a fight, with Americans and Germans as the only customers in his bar during this match. He was relieved to see us clink glasses at the end and talk spiritedly but cordially about the couple hours we had just spent.

This is an example where pride for country does not have to do with comparison, superiority, or racism.

I wanted USA to win more than anything in the world for those short moments, but I knew in my mind that Germany had a stronger team that year. That just made me wish America could have won more. However, when it was all over the better team win, and our team knew it. Then I was proud our team lost but didn't lose their honor as gentlemen players. Again no sense of national superiority.

I think over the years MMM, especially in the West we've come to use the pride word overly much. As we grow up most of us are told to be proud of ourselves, proud of our school, proud of our house, proud of our work, proud of this and proud of that. It's become so that we we should take pride in almost everything we do, even the most mundane of things. Even in christian countries like the US in which pride is one of the 7 deadly sins, we see pride being promoted aas one of the great virtues! So yes pride can be completely innocuous. My point though is that it can also be a slippery slope, not that it is always a bad thing but it can be the catalyst for many bad things. It's a matter of degrees. I just always get a little worried when governments try and stir up patriotism. Often precedes them doing some pretty bad stuff in my experience and helps to reduce criticism because any criticism is then labelled unpatriotic.