What I don't like about Japan, but won't make me leave
 

We have plenty of "Why Japan is Cool" threads, and we have a "I don't want to live in Japan" thread, but why not a thread of things we dislike about Japan that are worth dealing with?

This is not about defining absolute "right" vs absolute "wrong." It is rather more about what we feel.

1. Apologies - I've explained this elsewhere, but the Japanese view of apologies and the view I have of apologies are very different. I firmly believe "sorry mends no fences" and without an explanation of wrong doing, including mitigating circumstances, and a plan for mistake prevention, an apology is absolutely worthless. I also do not believe in apologising just for the sake of apologising as some sort of "gamemanship." Apologies used simply as a means to avoid rocking the boat and as political expediency seems dishonest and calculating.

I still do it, because It's Japan(TM), but I don't like it when I do, and I feel like I am being treated badly when it happens.

2. Gender segregation/Patriarchalism (and a lesser ability to loudly object to it) - This is actually fairly difficult to define, because the segregation boundaries are very much glass; that is to say they are present, but sometimes are not entirely visible.

I'm bothered by the tendency of Japanese home room teachers to divide classes up in alternating boy rows and girl rows in many of the classes I teach. I'm bothered by the ability for girls to have access to a trouser variant of the school uniform, but that I'm fairly certain there would be absolute mayhem if a boy wanted to wear a skirt. I'm not comfortable with segregated physical education classes. I'm displeased that every year, student introduction sheets for the classroom are color-coded: blue for boys, pink for girls. Could we get any more stereotypical?

These things bother me when done in the United States, but I find my education experience was generally more co-ed than not, and even in my private schools (I attended both private and public schools) very little beyond bathrooms and locker rooms were segregated. Classes weren't organised in patterns of boys and girls that highlighted the differences between them, and I certainly didn't have segregated gym class. And when events were segregated, and I saw absolutely no value in the events being segregated, I objected rather forcefully. From the time I was a primary school student, I have never suffered misogyny gladly, and my views while in the military are such that I support women in combat, women on submarines, women in command roles, and LGBT individuals serving.

There are plenty of places in Japanese society that seem to directly flow from the segregation I see in schools, and women are very much getting the shorter end of the stick. I'm concerned by what sort of views and perceptions are learned and internalised by both boys and girls when the importance of their gender is highlighted on a daily basis.

When it culminates in one of my ninth grade students telling me how her parents told her she should focus more on getting married than becoming a TV producer like she wants, because they tell her it's too difficult for a woman and she believes them, I tend to get a tiny bit put out. And by put out, I mean outraged. It's one thing for her parents' to hold their beliefs, it's another to make me wonder why the student internalised it so easily. Lack of strong female role models, perhaps?

3. Natto - Can't stand the stuff.

4. Fish - Any fish still whole enough to look at me as I look at it. That's decidedly creepy.

5. Roads - lack of imminent domain in Japan means Japanese roads are tiny, and scary, and I hate driving on them, especially in rural areas or housing estates.

6. No Central Heating/Central Cooling - I understand the monetary decision behind this, but try to avoid the use of Central Cooling in Texas, and you will die of heat exhaustion. Literally. Texas cities provide air conditioners free of charge to elderly and low income families because heat stroke is a very real fear. So I am unnerved by the lack of anything beyond just tiny fans that basically do nothing during the middle of July and August. Call it a survival instinct.

7. Institutionalised Alcohol Abuse - I drink. I drink socially once in a while. Maybe one or two. Three is pushing it. I do not drink alone. I rarely get drunk. Whenever I go out with coworkers, on official group outings, I feel like I am back at university. Surrounded by a bunch of friends demanding I chug, chug, chug. I can usually refuse, but I see how the new coworkers are often bullied into feeling that they must consume absolutely ridiculous amounts of beer or sake to fit in. It strikes me as dangerous, especially given the small frames of some of my newer coworkers. While such peer pressure is not uncommon in the United States, I certainly never experienced it as part of the business culture.

How about you?

I think its better to think of apologies in Japan as expressions of regret or empathy rather than an admission of guilt or a stepping stone to a solution.

Anyway my list. They are not big complaints but they sometimes make me think WTF?

- Being spoken to in English when I order something at a restaurant even though I order in Japanese. The main reason this bugs me is because I think my Japanese is not bad overall.. but DEFINITELY more than enough to place an order at a restaurant. In addition though... they speak to me in English without asking whether I speak English first. I mean I do but thats not the point. Chances are I could be from a country where English is not widely spoken.

- The extent to which essentialisation of other countries/cultures takes place and is allowed to happen. I mean this happens in all countries but it is usually challenged openly by people who know better. Whats lacking in Japan is this other voice on the shoulder. If it is there then it isnt loud enough. I mean usually its harmless enough and not judgemental which I suppose is in contrast to the way we in the west essentialise others but its still annoying.

You bring up some very interesting points. I'll just comment on a couple because I have to go out soon. Gym classes at my first high school in New Zealand were segregated, and do you know, I never gave it a thought at the time, it just seemed normal to me.

I will have to think about it, but I don't know how non-segregated gym classes would have worked- school boys in NZ spend a lot of time on rugby, and you really don't want boys and girls playing proper rugby together, people are going to get crushed!

We actually didn't have a trouser option with our uniform although some schools do these days (uniforms are the norm in NZ in public as well as private schools, right from primary school), but boys not being able to wear skirts isn't just a school uniform thing, is it- a salaryman wearing a skirt suit to work here would cause mayhem as well. That's just a societal thing, in no way limited to Japan, so I can't really say it's something I don't like about Japan.

I'm not really clear about what you mean by this, Ronin4Hire. I work as a proofreader and consider myself to have a fairly good level of vocabulary, but it's the first time I have ever come across "essentialisation". Can you give some examples of how we in the west essentialise others and how it is happening in Japan? Is it the same as stereotyping?

Essentialisation means thinking of all people in a category have some inherent similarity.

The example used when I learned about it was the view that all members of the African Diaspora have an inherent similarity because of colonialism and slavery.

I reject essentialisationist views. The idea that all women are inherently similar because of their biology is just such a view. It's more than just stereotyping, because it often relies on an idea of something that is far more permanent and less malleable. That it is a limitation that has natural reasoning behind it, and it cannot be overcome.

Your view that boys and girls cannot play rugby together is essentialisationalist, and I reject it out of hand, the same way I reject notions that it is impossible for some woman at some point to meet the standards for being a US Navy Seal, as an example. Rare, perhaps. Yet not impossible.

On point 5. Roads.

I guess the OP being from America plays a big part in their views on driving in Japan.
Having come from London I can say that even driving through central Tokyo is a pleasure for me.
At least in Japan, the road system can be used for it's intended purpose. In the UK it can be a fruitless exercise just driving 500 meters.

Onto Dislikes...
[Generalisation]
The Japanese have no spacial awareness. When they are walking, driving, cycling ect. they do not pay attention to their surroundings, and have poor control over their choice of locomotion.
When they have to make a split second decision it is mostly the wrong one.

I definately feel similar about roads... sometimes they are just too confusing. They don't have street names-- but they sometimes have numbers (where I am at least) and those numbers often bare little meaning to Japanese people (besides a couple of the really big streets). I've learned that each intersection has a name, though. It's ironic because now that I can read them and know that they're there, my eye sight is getting worse making it harder than ever. That's why I just got a navigation. That being said, though, it seems like everyone is really helpful in helping me out if I get lost and ask them. I've had a couple of instances where people point me in the wrong direction though, so I always make sure to get a second opinion.

I also don't quite understand why people have to be at work so much. Working from 6:30 AM until 11:00 PM and living 45 minutes away seems insane to me... There are a couple of my coworkers who do this routinely. They also go to work on weekends for probably half a day. I can understand staying an extra hour or two after work every day, but doing the gauntlet day in and day out seems detrimental to your health and can't possibly be good for your job performance.

Another thing that gets to me sometimes is when people are literally smoking a cigarette and drinking alcohol telling me how to be healthy. It's ironic and hilarious and all... but it seriously makes me wonder.

And dirtyroboto-- I've heard that spacial awareness one a few times before... a canadian guy who used to live here always said that same stuff. I personally don't see it a lot where I am (relatively). In california it was MUCH worse than I've ever seen it here. In fact, people here seem to be SUPER aware and are always curteous about things and will apologize if they mess up. I think you have to be at least a little bit spacially aware to drive through some of these streets, you know? In california everything is jumbo sized, so the second things get a little bit cramped, then there's gonna be accidents(whether it be while driving or walking). There is the ocassional jackass exception to what I just said though... sometimes you get some real birdbrains-- but I think that they're a lot less common than what I've experienced elsewhere.

Basically, just another hate thread by an English teacher. They weren't exactly ordered to come here but did so on their own will. Yet all they do here is complain.

Frankly, if everything in Japan were the same as in Texas, I'd be leaving here.

Japan is the only place I've been that I both love and hate at the same time. That's why it is so unique.

When it comes to apologies, I sort of like the Japanese side. I can apologize for something, and the apology is what matters. I don`t have to worry about going into an explanation of WHY or HOW - that isn`t the point. I`m not defending myself. I think it is something that takes time to get used to, as in the US it seems that an apology has to have an explanation in detail to try to get yourself out of the worst of trouble, deflect some of the blame, etc.
In Japan, I can just apologize and that be the end of it. Instead of feeling like I`m being put on trial and requiring a defense, I can apologize and have that apology mean either that I`m personally sorry, that it didn`t have anything to do with me but I`m still sorry it happened... Or anywhere in between and not have to explain that.

There are plenty of issues with gender things in Japan, and I`ve expressed my views on a lot of them in other places in the past so won`t get into any of it here... But I also actually attended a Japanese high school for a while, so may have a slightly different view of some of the classroom issues.

The seating arrangements are actually wonderful compromises. In general, girls and boys group themselves and do not associate with each other if not pushed to do so. Classroom projects usually involve working with the person next to you... So it is a pretty surefire way of getting girls and boys to actually participate equally and to associate with one another. If the seating pattern is entirely random, with no heed paid to the ratio between boys and girls, there will inevitably be a boy or girl isolated inside a group of the other. This also tends to be stressful. A random seating pattern also tends to lead to a higher probability of close knit friend groups being together and inevitably being talkative when they shouldn`t.
It really is a fairly decent compromise in my eyes. In school even in the US, the classroom tended to be split in a similar way when seats were set - maybe not in rows, but boy-girl-boy-girl alternations or table groups with an equal number of both. In Japan it more tended to be ordered by last name, and only split by gender when that style ended up with most girls and boys being grouped together.

A view from the other side in the US - when I was in school I expressed many times an interest in eventually getting married and having a family.
I have never had any teacher, male or female, be supportive of that. I was always told that it would be wasting my life, that I didn`t *really* want to do that, etc etc etc. The other side isn`t pretty either... When I finally did say I wanted to do something else, it was very easy to discourage me as it was a "dream" pulled out of nowhere to please everyone.
You never know what kind of background your student has - she may be rationalizing the fact that her family simply does not have enough money to send her on to the type of education she would need with "it would be too hard."... Something that was pretty common in my circle of high school friends, both male and female.

Food is all down to taste. :D

The roads... Well, I learned to drive in Japan, on Japanese roads. I find them normal and am pretty comfortable driving down those tiny urban and rural roads where it`s barely wider than the car.
I now find US roads terrifying, and the driving style absolutely violent... I suppose it all has to do with where you`re coming from and what you`re accustomed to.

No one is limited to tiny fans in summer - buy an air conditioner. :) A lack of central air is not a lack of A/C.

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When it comes to things that specifically annoy me... Hmm... It is hard to come up with specific things that apply only to Japan.
It think the easiest to come up with would be the fake interest in my life (well, the interest is real I assume, but the reasons behind it are falsified) people seem to have. It seems that everyone wants to be my friend and visit my house, but not really out of a gesture of friendship but because it`s cool to have a non-Japanese friend and I`m convenient being as I speak Japanese... And who doesn`t want to see a real foreigner`s house?!?
It isn`t much of an issue these days as I`m not a very friendly person to begin with and am very private when it comes to my personal space, but was annoying for a bit until I made it quite clear that I had no interest in being friendly to satisfy anyone`s interests.

Another would be the assumption that everyone is inherently peaceful and naive... And how any view opposite this is sort of glossed over.
A few years back, my husband was pushed into a corner and volunteered for an interview on international relationships and world peace. (International as in the actual relationship between countries, not individuals.)
He stated that while the dream of world peace was a beautiful and noble ideal, as cultural and religious differences were always going to exist and be enhanced by community and varying levels of isolation, there was little hope of it ever being realized. Wars would always exist at some level, but it was our responsibility to try not to take sides.
In the published magazine, his comments were in whole until that last part - where they cut it off and made him say "World peace is beautiful and noble"... This sort of thing seems to the norm, and is reflected everywhere you look with the representations of Japan being a society entirely devoted to being global citizens that don`t believe in conflict of any sort. And I think this ends up making Japan appear childish when viewed from the outside as the world is not so simple.

LL size women`s shoes are lucky to be 25 cm. They`re usually "24.5 but we think 25 might be able to squeeze into them!" - and most places only stock M at that (23cm). I have never been able to buy a pair of shoes in an actual store as I wear 25.5/26cm.

The fact that everyone just takes it for granted that during the major holidays it is going to be incredibly painfully crowded - and still all crowd the same places as that is what is expected on a holiday. When it comes to what matters on a holiday, actual enjoyment is pretty far down on the list... Which of course makes it impossible for anyone to enjoy something as places are so crowded with people who are just going through the motions out of holiday obligation or something. As shocking as it is to most people we tell, my husband actually volunteers to work over major holidays so that we can have days off when everyone else is not. It is rare for anyone to get the point in this. "But, it`s a holiday! I can`t believe he is working on a holiday! How will you ever make Family Memories(TM)?" Umm, a couple weeks later when we don`t have to fight with thousands of other people?

I`m sure there are more, but I didn`t really plan out this reply. :)

Sashimister, you do me a great disservice by misunderstanding the intent of this thread. You also do English teachers and non-ethnic Japanese residents of Japan a great disservice by practicing the exact essentialisationism that was brought up by Ronin4Hire.

I've explained elsewhere what I love about Japan, how happy I am here, and that given the options I have in life, one of them is applying for permanent residency and staying here. Far from complain all the time about Japan, I usually spend my time gushing about it my friends and family. The majority of my time spent speaking about Japan is spent praising it.

There are plenty of things about the United States I don't like. There are even things about Texas I don't like. I explained exactly the reason this thread was made. I see threads bashing Japan, I see threads glorifying Japan. What I haven't seen is a thread saying, "Hey, Japan isn't perfect, but I still want to live here" and giving a more realistic view of what immigrants to Japan might find uncomfortable.

This isn't attacking Japan or the Japanese. It isn't attacking you. If you're insinuating that I should either love everything about Japan or leave I am afraid I don't see how your post is anything but unduly inflammatory.

I think this is how the Japanese view American apologies. That explanation is equivocation. There doesn't seem to be an understanding that sometimes there is a desire to explain on behalf of the person apologising, and there doesn't seem to be an understanding that people can lie about being sorry.

Whereas I feel I am not given a chance to defend myself, if necessary. If I empathise, I can say "I'm sorry that happened to you," but this is not the kind of apology I was referring to. I was rather referring to the sort of apologies expected when you have been accused of making a mistake. The Japanese seem to lack an understanding that we often take for granted in the west of "innocent until proven guilty" and I believe that is what causes misunderstanding over the nature of apologies.

Again, this isn't about what is culturally "right" but rather about "feelings." I can't help feeling I'm not being taken seriously when I am expected to simply say "gomen nasai" and move on. Even if I "know" the Japanese do not see it that way, it doesn't change how I "feel."

I am aware of this. I actually sat down with one of the Japanese teachers I trusted to not get offended at my discussion and he explained exactly what you explained above. What I'd like to know is how we got to this point. Why is it that girls and boys do not mix as much as my own experiences. What is being taught to young children that makes gender the primary form of self-identification?

This is exactly what I wish to deconstruct.

Huh. Mine weren't at all. Oh, sure, groups of friends would be broken up, but I certainly never saw any attempt to draw undo attention to some inherent difference between boys and girls. If I had, I would have demanded an explanation for it.

I also note that while my group of friends from high school was male heavy, we had (and still do have) a number of female members.

Your teachers would have annoyed me to no end. I believe that getting married and having a family is absolutely fine. In fact, it's a lot harder. If you got paid a salary for being a homemaker, I believe it was calculated at six figures. I've equally argued that stay-at-home Dads are treated without the respect they deserve.

I've been calling to task educators, politicians, administrators, and peers since at least the fifth grade. I just find that in Japan, I cannot be as vocal about it without being seen as being seen exactly like Sashimaster just showed he sees me.

No, their issue wasn't that it would be too hard for her, personally, but that it was too hard for women. Any woman. My Japanese is far from perfect, but I was flabbergasted enough to spend time clarifying just what I heard to make sure that my "righteous indignation" was justified. She may have misunderstood them, that is a possibility, but what she told me was that her parents didn't believe woman were cut out to be TV producers. She may also have been lying through her teeth, but I haven't any reason to doubt her.

Actually neither of those have anything to do with taste, or ingredients. Natto bothers me because of how it feels. I eat plenty of fish. I just don't like things staring at me. Unfortunately, it is a lot harder for me to avoid in Japan than in other countries, because the school provides my lunch for me.

I don't like driving in the US either, but for very different reasons. In this case I was specifically talking about the roads. I am certain I am going to end up in a gutter or scraping the side of another car eventually. I've also been in an accident in Japan- I was hit by a truck. I haven't had a car accident in the United States for several years. I am sure that adds to my skittishness that Japanese roads are too small to give adequate room to drive on.

I have an air conditioner in my apartment. But there is no A/C in the buildings I work in. School and city office only have fans. Air conditioners are too cost intensive. Instead, we get cool biz where we take off ties and wear short sleeved shirts. And it matters not all.

But even putting an aircon in each classroom or office would not do the job of central cooling. I've been in both environments and central cooling is definitely nicer. Terribly expensive, but nicer.

And that's why I have like... three Japanese friends. It can be hard to tell who likes you for you and who just wants non-Japanese friend coolness points. I'm a person, not an accessory. Go buy an LV purse in Shinsaibashi.

Which is why I rarely discuss the opposite view (which is what I hold) with the Japanese. The view I often hear is "Let's just stop joining militaries, then war would stop!" As if we could convince extremist military groups, terrorists, rebel paramilitary organisations, etc to just give up because the "developed" countries disbanded their armed forces. Your husband is absolutely correct.

There is plenty of understanding that people can lie about being sorry. It`s not that apologizing is taken at face value to be sincere, but the fact that the person is apologizing at all - even if it`s an empty only-out-of-obligation apology and you have no plans whatsoever to change the way you do things - is what matters. Because the apology marks The End of the argument, the person upset is not supposed to remain upset. Sincerity is nice, but isn`t necessary. The apology is a convenient way of ending the conflict, and both sides know this. Instead of leaving the door open to make things worse, the apology is a firm stamp marking the end and letting people get on with their lives.

I know, and I was really just stating that I felt the other way really. I like the apology being the end-all, and being very good at explaining my way out of things it sort of forces me to be more responsible in the end as there isn`t really a way out.

I don`t really think this is a Japan thing though... Girls tend to have more girl friends, and boys more boy friends. I haven`t seen any real difference in the mixing in Japan as compared to my experience in the US - In fact, when it comes to out of school mixing, I`d say that there seems to actually be more casual events with both genders than not. I don`t really think that back when I was in high school in the US that it was the norm for a girl to just call up a guy from school and suggest that they go out somewhere when there was no sort of attraction between the two of them... But in Japan it was and still does seem to be pretty normal. Up until high school you can spot girls and boys playing together and talking pretty equally - something that would have without a doubt shot straight to "who likes who" back in my US schooling years. But in Japan that doesn`t come into play really until high school, which may be emphasizing the line between the boys and girls.

There was a call for explanation if it WASN`T split up this way. Why does so-and-so get to sit by all the cute girls? Why does she get to be by all the popular guys?!? Etc.

Mine was pretty male heavy... I was that one girl in the guy group. But in Japan has always been pretty balanced - at least during school. As did the friend groups of most people around. In high school there is who has a crush on who pressure, so inside school itself there is a bit of tension though.

Having both worked and been stay-at-home... I will say unequivocally that staying at home is considerably easier, and I would not consider paying myself a six figure salary by any stretch. The only thing "harder" is that you have to manage yourself, and therefore need to have a higher level of personal responsibility than you would in a supervised workplace. You have only yourself to answer to.

I`m sure this is just me, but I still sort of see the stay-at-home life as one of relative glamor. I certainly don`t sit around on the sofa eating bon-bons and watching soap operas, but I`m also not under much pressure that I`m aware of. And this is with a child who has disabilities... Sort of drives me crazy to see what I consider a normal level of personal responsibility in taking care of yourself put up on a pedestal as some amazingly difficult task - and actually feel it a bit degrading, as if I`m being falsely praised for something simple. "Oh yes, it`s such an important job! You should be paid tons for doing so much!" - for what really amounts to cleaning up after myself and making my own food. (With a kid stuck on the side there.) Kind of like overly praising a little kid for being so amazing in putting their own pants on or the like.

That made me raise my eyebrows a bit as what you wrote wasn`t really particularly "hate" filled at all, and you were pretty clear that it was an issue of how you personally felt about things.

Oh, no, I didn`t mean to imply that her parents had said something different or that she was lying. But rather that she may be accepting of that sort of thing for underlying reasons that aren`t clear - like not having enough money anyway. "Too hard for women" "men aren`t cut out for that kind of work" "it`s not a woman`s job", etc, often seem to be parroted when there is another reason lurking in the background. It isn`t personally disparaging - it may not be too hard for her personally - but it`s a way out of being pushed to "Well, if you work all your free time you can probably afford college!" or even having to admit that there are other issues to begin with.
My own husband used a "well, they don`t seem to be many openings for men these days anyway..." as a way of rationalizing when he couldn`t afford a certain certification and didn`t have parental support for it... And I have used the "Well, it would be a hard career for a woman to enter" when my "come up with something you want to be other than a wife and mother" path didn`t seem to be too viable.

Or her parents could just feel that way and could have raised her to feel that it is true.
Either way though, I think it`s best not to assume that it`s as simple as it appears under any circumstances.

I think that you may need to be a bit more aware of further ahead on the road when it is a narrow one, but I don`t really think they`re too small for driving. At least roads that are actually frequented - there are plenty of agriculture roads that aren`t intended to be used as actual roads between fields and the like that are pretty tight.
I`ve never been in an accident in Japan, and have never scraped my car even on tiny roads. I have been scraped in a parking lot though - but that has nothing to do with roads.

Nicer, no doubt, but would kill a school with the cost. I know someone who put in central air thinking it was the greatest thing ever... And now they never turn it on. Apparently to cool their tiny house it ended up being 200,000yen for one month in early summer.
One month. Only on during about half the day when people were at home.
Their house is something like 100m2...
I don`t even want top think about what it would cost to cool an entire school.

I have more Japanese friends than not, but no one is welcome in my house for a very long time. And I`m much much better at detecting any silly reasons for being friendly now than I was 8+ years ago when it really annoyed me.0

I have found that the other view is pretty normal and definitely there. It`s the presentation of it not existing that irks me. I see a lot more "war is inevitable - that isn`t reason for us to get involved" than "we should all be peaceful and happy! Love will bring world peace!" But you would think by the way media presents things that only the naive childish one exists.
If that were really the case, I`d just take it in stride... But I`d say my husband`s view is more common than the other. That`s part of why he was most upset about being quoted in that way - everyone else would think he was childishly naive.
I think there exists a view of "This is what the world expects!" so it becomes the "official" view presented - particularly to the outside of Japan.

Regarding apologies and the US and Japan, I have actually come around to like the "Japanese method" better than what is SOP in the US.

In Japan I was frustrated for apologizing for things that were not my fault. In American thinking, that made me a lesser person...a lower rank, "the guy that messed up", whatever. However I realized that is modus operandi in Japan.

After living in Japan for a few years I became really aware of how Americans make excuses rather than apologies for their mistakes.

If I make a reservation at a restaurant in Japan, and am not seated at the exact time of my reservation (assuming I showed up on time or a little earlier) then I am given a heart-felt apology.

If I make a reservation at a restaurant in the US, and am not seated at the exact time of my reservation (assuming I showed up on time or a little earlier) then I am given an excuse why they couldn't fulfill the promise of a table at the time they made it to me.

This made sense to me before I lived in Japan, but now it just pisses me off. I would prefer the apology over the excuses.

I think all of you are generalising here! First of all, I'm going to assume that apologising in the US is the same as the UK, in which case, people don't always make excuses when they apologise! Secondly, I think it's a terrible idea to prefer just an apology ALL THE TIME instead of getting an explanation! The perpetrator can get away with so much if all it took was an apology to get someone off their back! With that said, sometimes, in certain situations, I do agree that an apology would be better than an explanation!

I fully agree with that actually. I think it's always nice to hear an appology, but if there's never an 'excuse' with it then somtimes it sounds insincere or as if the other person's trivialising the situation. If someone's done you an injustice I think you're fully entitled to hear why, and judge then if its a good excuse or not, rather than hear what's a probably insincere apology that means nothing on it's own. In this respect I think I'd prefer the US/UK approach to appologising over the Japanese way.

On a side note, can I ask why the Americans make such a huge deal over air-conditioning? Here in the UK our climate/weather is pretty similar in tempreture to Japan (or so I've read). We use central heating in winter, but I've never known a single English person to use air-conditioning, not even in many places of work, and we all survive fine. I find it hard to believe living in Japan is so much more difficult without air-conditioning, or is it simply a matter of beng used to luxuries and then enduring shock when that luxury is taken away from you as you move abroad?

Of course using an apology to get off all the time is silly, just as never giving an explanation. That isn`t the case in Japan, and I don`t believe that anyone has said it is. If you repeat the same thing, then of course you`re going to fall under some serious scrutiny as by apologizing, you are basically saying you won`t do the same thing again. (Plus, there are things that a mere apology don`t make up for - but that isn`t what is being talked about here.)
As the one being apologized to you can ask for an explanation. I think this is a key difference.

From my exposure to people from the UK, I would say that the culture when it comes to apologies isn`t quite the same as that of the US. In the US, it really does seem to be the norm to deflect blame at all costs. Excuses seem to come out first before any expression of regret or guilt - sometimes even leading to the other person getting mad and snappy about having to take responsibility for their own wrongdoing.

Of course, not everyone is like this, and it would be silly to think that they are. But it is common enough to be a pretty accurate generalization.

In my experience, in Japan apology comes first. An explanation follows if the person in the wrong is asked for one. In the US, an explanation or excuse comes first, and then possibly an apology if the person feels they are enough in the wrong as to not divert the blame.

I am under the impression that the UK is much cooler than Japan. Where I live, in the summer it is almost always over 30C, occasionally even approaching 40C (rare, but still)... And I live pretty much in the middle in terms of north to south.

Ah, thank you for explaining. I can see why in that case keeping cool would be such a priority; having experienced such tempretures in Greece for a holiday it was hard to cope with, I can certainly appreciate now why it'd be very hard to live with. I actually had no idea the weather in Japan could be between 30-40, I always assumed that level of heat was reserved only in places in the south, like Okinawa. Again, thank you for educating me on the matter :)

No problem. I would love, honestly, to have UK temperatures here. It was 31 yesterday, 29 today, and it`s still May. *sigh* I`m much more comfortable in the 15~25 range for summer.

That said, it`s still not to the point where I feel the need for air conditioning. That will come later... With a vengeance.

Okinawa actually isn`t as hot as one would expect with it being in the south - the temperatures tend to be mild from what I understand, with a warm winter but not overly hot summer.
A comparison; Naha, Okinawa
And around where I live; Nagoya
Scroll down to see the average temperatures through the year.

As far as aircon, if you have never been to Texas in summer, it is well over a hundred degrees Fahrenheit. Sometimes it can get to hundred and ten. And that's before you add in humidity. In the west, there isn't any. In Houston there is as much as Japan, only at a much lower latitude. Without air conditioning, people die in Texas. Some people die even with air con, because they fail to hydrate properly and the aircon cannot keep up even if they have it. We lose Texans to heat strokes every year without fail. Usually elderly or children.

I fear the lack of air conditioning during summer. I've heard warnings all my life of how it can mean death.

Another thing that gets on my nerves is those damn obasan's (ojisan's are not so bad). They push in everywhere and have no respect for other people, they are the rudest people you can find in Japan.
Coming from England I have a whole load of mother-in-law jokes I can now tailor to those damn old prunes :D

Nyororin's pretty much cleared this up but I can definitely say that coming from England to Japan there is a huge difference. It's not just the higher heat, that's quite bearable; it's the humidity. I've been in 50C in the sahara. It was hot and gross, but I still felt like I could get on with things because it was dry. The humidity cranked up to over 90% when I was there and it is absolutely draining. Nothing dries. You sweat buckets the moment you make the slightest effort and at night you stick to your sheets. Outside there's not really any wind like you get in the UK. It's flat, dead air. Stifling. Trust me, Air Con suddenly is your best friend in those conditions. I would have been deeply unhappy without it, especially at night because the temperature doesn't drop off that much after dark. It's still over 20C and, yup, humid. And this goes on for ooo, a couple of months or more?

Now imagine trying to -work- in that kind of atmosphere and you'll get the idea why a lot of people think it's mad that Japanese high schools schools don't have AC.

On the flip-side we Brits aren't that good with temperatures either. We might not use AC at home, but most people have their central heating up too high most of the time.

I am not interested in why the restaurant cannot keep my reservation. I don't want to hear they are overbooked or the manager is sick or the dessert delivery truck never arrived.

I just want to know that they feel bad about putting me out and not fulfilling their promise to me. I want to know they are taking responsibility for their mistake.

By making an excuse it sounds like they are shirking responsibility or that "we" are in the same boat.

That doesn't work for me.

Of course there are situations where I want to hear the "why", like if my doctor needs to amputate my arm or my lawyer didn't file my lawsuit in time, but when it is a matter of me having to simply wait an extra 10 minutes, I would prefer the honest apology over buck-passing excuses.

Did you ever notice at the supermarket how they can block the shelf where you are trying to get something and block the aisle all at he same time? I think there is a secret class that teaches Obasans this.;)

This is a good example of the "mends no fences" kind of apology that I actively despise, MMM. You say honest, but how does one determine an honest apology? As a customer, I don't care if the person seating me is or is not personally sorry. What does it matter? What I need to know is "why did this happen" and "is it likely to happen again?" If don't like the answers to those questions, I will no longer go to that restaurant. If I understand the answer to the first, and recognise that the people involved are doing their best, and that is not likely to be a repeat occurrence, then I will probably chalk it up to "stuff happens." I might expect some sort of compensation (free appetizer, extra course, etc), but that's purely business.

Why should someone be made to apologise for something beyond their control? A late delivery truck or a manager that got sick is hardly the fault of the person who happens to be working the front desk.

"Sorry," is just as capable of being used as a "get out of jail free" card as a reason for a mistake. I positively hate the way that "excuse" has garnered a negative reputation and is now connected to subterfuge or blame deflection. Not every reason offered seeks to blame someone else.

I am not looking for "sorry" as much as "we are taking responsibility for this.

You live in Japan, so you know each and every employee is a representative of that business. I am not saying that the exact employee that makes the apology is personally responsible for the reason I am being seated late. I am saying the business acknowledges the social contract we made is being broken by them, and they are going to do what they can to make it right.

What kind of answer are you looking for when you ask "Why am I being seated late?" What would be acceptable, and what would you reject? Isn't this harder for the employee to do than apologize?

I don't know what "mend no fences" apology means. If they apologize in what I consider a honest way, then I would go back again. I have been on this Earth long enough to know when someone means it and when someone doesn't.

A sorry is not an "excuse". If it is heartfelt then it is taking responsibility for an unfortunate situation. You don't get that so often in the US.

"Sorry mends no fences" is an idiom that means that an apology, by itself, doesn't do any work. In the case of the idiom, saying you're sorry that the fence isn't fixed yet doesn't get the fence fixed. Telling me you are sorry for the delay doesn't get me seated faster, and it doesn't allow me to ascertain how likely it is to happen in the future.

This is, I suppose, the fundamental difference in viewpoints. I see just an apology (especially from one who is not directly to blame) as a way to be evasive about why the mistake was made. The Japanese view, and it seems your view, is that why the mistake was made is the equivocation. That seems to be the crux of the issue on receiving apologies. Giving apologies is another matter entirely.

After 6 years here, the only thing I have not been able to get over is the widespread smoking and the lack of segregation of smoking and non-smoking areas. I think I have posted it before but the irony just kills me about how it is important not to be a nuisance to others in public, yet I cannot think of anything more annoying than somebody blowing cancer in your face and stinking up your clothes, and all you wanna do is sit there and enjoy your ramen in peace. If the place is too small to segregate, it should just be a law that it is a mandatory non-smoking establishment.

I dream about the day Japan is a smoke-free nation.

Nothing is going to fix the fact that you are not seated now. Like I said earlier, I am not so self-important that having to wait an extra 10 minutes is going to ruin the evening or really affect me. However, I would like the business to acknowledge the fact that they broke the social contract we had made. I don't need excuses, just that acknowledgement if they want me to come back again.

I am not concerned about who is "directly to blame". Sh*t happens. I understand that. All I am asking is that the business acknowledge that sh*t happened, and that they take responsibility for that. Any employee is a representative of that business, and any acknowledgement of shortcoming, really, is good enough for me.

I moved out of Japan in the late 90s. I feel what you are saying, but the no-smoking policies right now in Japan are much more tolerable than they were 10+ years ago. I went to fast food places with no "no smoking" areas back then. I am happy to see actual "no smoking" establishments now.

Yes, I should add that you are correct, from what I have heard A LOT of progress has been made. Let's hope it keeps going.

I work for a foreign company at the Niseko ski resort in Hokkaido. A great frustration of mine has been the almost total lack of investment by Japanese investors during a period this resort has seen significant growth in international visitors and a massive amount of investment from foreign investors. Particularly frustrating are the resort owners of the Hirafu ski area. It has been actually quite astounding their ineptitude at taking any sort of advantage at all of the recent growth. Most ski resorts in Japan are struggling with a declining market and many have been going bankrupt and closing in recent years. Niseko is one of the few that has seen growth and probably the only one that has seen 100's of millions of dollars in property and services investments. Problem is just about all the investment and those making money from the growth are foreigners. You would think if you're the managers of a ski area that had been in steady decline since the bubble years you would jump at the chance to capitalise on a new period of growth. Alas no, in recent talks with the resort managers and our company they fully admitted they have no idea how to deal with the foreign market that's coming here. That's 7 or so years on since foreigners started coming here in reasonable numbers. They have still no hired even one foreigner in any sort of position, let alone management, to assist them in understanding this market to take advantage of it. It simply astounds me. Is it any wonder the Japanese economy has been stagnant or declining for so long. They seem to have forgotten how to do business. Well at least that's my experience up here. I'm sure it's probably different down in big cities like Tokyo. At least I'd hope so!
I would love for more Japanese investors and companies to get involved up here. Shouldn't just be foreign companies taking advantage of the money to be made here.

Amen to that.

:vsign:

As for apologies, from what I've heard, it goes like this.

Japan. 'I'm sorry I'm late.'

England. 'I'm sorry I'm late, I woke up late.'

USA. 'I'm sorry I'm late, I woke up late because my alarm clock ran out of batteries and my Mom didn't wake me up.'

Would that be an unfair assumption or is that how it is?

I would say that for Japan it would be: "I`m sorry I`m late. I will do my best not to be late again, and will take responsibility for whatever problems arise because I inconvenienced you."

I can`t comment on England...

And the US would be more like "Yeah, I`m sorry I`m late, but my alarm must have broken because it didn`t go off - and my stupid mom was supposed to wake me up but didn`t. So it`s not my fault, really."
:mtongue:

I've always wondered this and felt it's too rude for me to ask the Japanese I know. In your experience, with Japanese in Japan and abroad (for short periods, maximum a couple of months on an exchange program of some sort), do you think they keep the same etiquettes etc?

The reason I ask is because a lot of the descriptions about Japanese I see on this forum are not what I experience with Japanese exchange students... One of which is this apology thing. I agree that they never try to make an excuse and they never try to explain, but NEVER, in the past four years of helping out the exchange students have I heard someone say something along the lines of what Nyoronin just put! So, do you guys know if they follow the principle of "when in Rome, do as the Romans"? or do they still act as though they're in Japan? or is it simply a new generation thing (all the students are never older than 23)?

What I wrote was more a generalization than a specific translation of what people actually say. It`s more the general feel of the apology and the stuff that follows.

In Japan "I`m sorry" carries that meaning - it`s sort of one of those things that you don`t have to put into words. If someone says "I`m sorry" (which is really a basic translation as in most cases what is said isn`t really the same meaning as that, but there is no better way to translate it into English) the person receiving the apology accepts it to mean a certain thing - that certain thing being somewhat along the lines of what I wrote.

Simply saying "I`m sorry" doesn`t carry that same meaning in English - but there isn`t really a handy phrase in English that does... So I would imagine that they are saying it with the same feeling behind it whether they say it in English or Japanese.

I can`t really judge whether they are following the norm of where they are - but I can guess that they are apologizing with the same feeling behind as in Japanese. However, language isn`t words alone - culture is a huge part of it - so saying the closest words in English won`t necessarily convey the same meaning as in Japanese.

I find the generalisation of the USA apology to be slightly offensive. Nyororin was joking, but I am unsure if MissMisa was. That being said, let me rewrite the apology to how I would say it:

"I'm sorry I'm late, I woke up late, my alarm clock's batteries were dead. I also spoke to my mother before I went to sleep asking if she would be my back up, she agreed but did not follow through. I plan to replace the batteries, buy a second alarm clock with a plug, and ask a buddy to call me as well. This way I will prevent the mistake from happening again. It's my fault that I didn't put even more protections in place, and I will endeavor to prevent a repeat of this mistake."

This is very different from the tone used above in the other posts. When a subordinate makes a mistake, I expect all of the information above. Not just an apology, not just a promise that it won't happen again, but an explanation of why it happened, and how the subordinate will attempt to prevent it from happening again. I cannot evaluate how a subordinate learns if I don't know what processes are involved.

If you would read into the "mother" line as shifting the blame to her, you would be wrong. No blame is being shifted. Blame remains on the person apologising. It was my fault for trusting my mother to be a reliable back up, just as it was mine for not checking the batteries, and mine for not having a second alarm clock.