ok ppl , Ninja or Samurai

[scorpionblack]

Originally Posted by kunitokotachi

Samurai did not have any more heart than ninja. Yes, a ninja could beat a samurai in a fair fight. It depends on the skill of each fighter and not profession. Some samurai could use aikido or something to that nature but so could ninja. The history goes that a Chinese monk taught shoalin to esoteric monks and warriors in the mountains of Iga. I don't know how this myth about samurai being so honorable got around. Samurai could be very low sometimes killing someone just because they said the wrong thing, chopping a guys head off then saying kirisutegomen. You definitely wouldn't want to be a farmer or a merchant back then. You also could not carry a sword back then unless you are samurai so nobody else was stupid enough to out in open with a sword including ninja. There are claims that some ninja had premonitions into the future. Discovery Channel did a documentary with CIA remote viewers which... you just have to see it.

very true what you said..
that is why i said not every samurai is musashi and not every ninja is hatori hanzo.

[scorpionblack]

Originally Posted by Hyakushi

Well when fighting for your life there is really no wrong or right theres only you and your goal. Thats whats conffusing me eveyone is making rules and rules and rules on top of rules Hahahahaha oh well maybe I will never get it.

depending on the kind of person..
those who value their life over anything would use every trick in the book.
those who value their cause and their value even over their lives have no problem getting wasted for their cause.
it is like a mujahid ready to die for his aim.

[kunitokotachi]

I think Musashi was cool but thinking about it...

1. Musashi was pretty irresponsible for going from dojo to dojo issuing challenges. In those days you could die or be seriously injured from a match. Also, because of his character a lot of those matches turned into duels to the death.

2. We can technically say that Musashi cheated because he used two swords instead of one sometimes.

3. Other samurai during that time did not think much of him. Some of it was just prejudice because he was an inakazamurai.

4. There is controversy surrounding the duel between Musashi and Kojiro. Musashi knew that he could not beat Kojiro with his swords so he used a broken boat oar. Musashi hid the true length of the boat oar in the water to trick Kojiro. Then when Kojiro advanced Musashi brought the boat oar down on Kojiro's head. Kojiro's sword cut Mushashi's headband. If Musashi had been using his swords that day he would have likely died.

[Amnell]

Originally Posted by Odin

So the ninja is willing to sacrifice his honor, for the sake of his promise. The samurai will break his promise to save his honor.

That's an interesting way of looking at it...

Listening to all of your guys' opinions makes me wonder if maybe the shinobi and the bushi were in and you for each other. Actually, I'm sure of it.

Talk to Tenchu about this once and you'll learn that the Samurai were very clean people. They clung to the purity of self with a death grip.

And from what other people are saying in this thread, the Ninja were more occupied with accomplishing their goal at whatever cost.

Sounds like near opposites, to me.

☯☯☯☯☯☯☯☯☯☯☯☯☯☯☯☯☯☯☯☯

But, I think I'll ask everyone here to show proof that the ninja and samurai were as is here being said. I don't know how much you all know, but I doubt any of you really know a hell of a lot. Feel free to correct me .

Oh, here's one for those of you saying the samurai could have used Aikido...

Aikido did not even exist until the 1920's. The Samurai class was long gone by that time. Aikijujutsu, from which Aikido derives, also seems to have been developed long after the end of the Samurai.

So a Samurai would not have been able to use Aikido against a Ninja in unarmed combat. He would have been more likely to use Karate, but then only if he'd spent a lot of time in Okinawa.

But make no mistake: just because the Bushi used kenjutsu, doesn't mean they were useless without a sword. If I recall my readings correctly, kenjutsu as it was only two hundred years ago taught a lot more than just how to beat someone over the head with a four foot long piece of steel. Nothing at all like kendo.

[Sinner]

Ninja for sure!

[Amnell]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Amnell, you still have not truly understood the point of it. I tried to tell you last time so now I think there is no point. But last time I was using WW2 as an example. I dont know.

Hmn, I have posted them before, and everyone missed the point, I will post them again but I only expect the same result.

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Amnell, you are still unable to see what I am talking about because you live in your world, with your values. If you trained full time as a Warrior for long enough eventually you would come to realize what I am saying as true. It is the only form of strength. All else you practice is weakness, as it has not the power to stand strong when faced with the real possibility of death. You continuously over look this, and will continuously run from death. I wonder when you would ever form a will like me that is strong enough to stand up against ALL things? Never, I think. Not like that, anyway.

I've read these things many times. I understand perfectly the viewpoint. It's not that I'm not getting the concept. I just don't believe it. That's how it was when we last discussed this (at the end of said discussion). My belief is different; my definition of what makes a true warrior is different. I wouldn't say drastically so, but it is.

I do live in my world with my values. I value life (Life is the process; death is the result). I want my life to be the best that it can be so that when I look back, on the edge of death, I'm not disappointed. This is like your view, so far. The difference is that I also place value in my life of itself. How can I look back on my life (upon dying) and say that I did life right when I threw it away for someone else, someone with a bigger sword? How can I concentrate on living my life when I'm preoccupied with the thought of death? Even as a warrior, with death as a constant companion, I think that I would be more than happy to "take a vacation", as it were, at every opportunity.

I've said this before: I don't DISagree with your viewpoint; it's not wrong. I only feel that it's a little extreme.

With your last statement, if you mean would I be willing to die for something, then, yes, I would be. If it were something that I truly believed could be benefited by my life's end and it were something that I truly wanted to benefit, I would. If you mean do I have the fortitude and constitution to stand up to anything and come out fighting, then, yes, I do. Aside from my older sister, I'm about the most tenacious little fuck I know (yet even I know that there's a limit to things and will graciously bow out when that limit has been reached).

Last time we discussed this, I tried to explain how I think. Well, I've revised my thinking since then, so now allow me to (hopefully succinctly) explain myself:

I believe that the universe requires balance. The same as the Taoists, the same as the Egyptians, etc. Death is the balance to life, light to dark, good to evil, etc. (Samurai to Ninja XD ). Always occupying yourself with death, I believe, would disrupt the balance of your existence. In reality, preoccupations with death tend to occur in individuals who are mentally unstable or physically ill (and one can bring about the other).

(Aside: you don't have to read this part)I don't think of death as a constant companion, as Bushi did; rather, I think of death as a simple inevitability and nothing more. Being afraid of it is pointless. Having said that, I'm still not satisfied with my life, so I would like to continue living for a while longer until I "set my affairs in order" (Thank God I'm still young).

[Odin]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Odin, I hardly think to die trying, as a Samurai would had his lord ordered him to do something, is to break a promise. That is pretty poor of an example.

Odin, the Warrior may or may not be killed during his battle to fulfill whatever promises he has made. What is important, though, in order to maintain yourself, it is that you do not compromise yourself. Actually, you are so wrong in what you said about the Warrior that the opposite of what you said, in that, being able to accept the inability to fulfill comands due to death, this was conceded as the most important thing by all true Samurai. A man who changes his plan when he is faced with death, such as a Ninja would, he is the true traitor to his lord. A Ninja was a survivalist, such a man can not be trusted. That is why demonstration of Hara Kiri were used in the faces of lords to prove the quality of the men. Samurai were not survivalists, they were Warriors with immovable hearts. A man who sways like the wind when death is put in front of him can never be a true Warrior, this is so even for masterless Warrior, even if you only have yourself to consider, if you do not stick to your plan when faced with death then you were never worth the title to deal in death to begin with.

What you have not grasped is that I do understand. However I do not hold one warrior above the other. They are both men of honor in my eyes. Both the samurai and the ninja have a code of ethics, but they are from different philosophies. To the ninja the goal of his oath is the source of honor, he does not want to break his sworn duties any less than the samurai. So he does change his plan and seeks a different path to fulfill his oath.

It is the story of the oak and the willow. The oak says he shall defeat the wind or I shall die trying. The willows say today I can not beat the wind, so I shall bend. Tomorrow I shall battle the wind again.

This is the same difference in philosophies you would see during World War II in the Pacific. The Japanese did not understand why the Americans would surrender alive. To them is was dishonorable not to give your life in the fight. The American was thinking I have been beaten today, so I shall live to fight another day.

I see the validity in both sides and I see honor in both sides.

[Amnell]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Hmn, it is these little things you say that make me think you do not truly understand this. You say we are occupied or obsessed with death and so unbalanced. (The Egyptians believed in balance, where you hear that?). Samurai on the deeper length idolized death to promise them a form of eternal life. So the extreme death stance would give them imortality. Now, you can not think of this on a soul level, it is a spiritual level. You don't actually live on once you are dead. It is more so the feeling of having learned the Way of the Warrior in your heart, just that feeling is what Samurai would have called imortality. I can see in your idea of the necesity of compromise to do this or that, I see how about your spirit is. It is same as in Buddhism, I know if you understood what I meant you would be like both the Samurai and the Buddhist monk after enlightenment, where everything is already completed, there is no need to live on. You do not see this, now you will run around your whole life besting things, and each time you redo something to make it better you will think you are getting somewhere. But just like your balance thing, the point you are looking for is neither at the end of your path nor at the beggining, it is on the road between, where life resides, and from your own words makes it easy to see you have no idea about this since you are racing down the path trying to get to the end to do all this and that... Amnell, this is not one of them argueable things, so I don't want to discuss it anymore, all that needs to be said is I am so resolved that I am ready things to end right now, where as you feel that you could only accept to end yourself were there something to go on afterwards, hinting only you are incomplete.

You don't understand the Way of the Warrior.

-_- I don't understand YOUR way of the warrior. Granted, I'm still a little too young to have really found my balance or to really know where I'm at RIGHT NOW. But I have an idea of where I'm going, and until I get there, I'm not ready to die. Maybe you've reached that point in your life where you feel you've fulfilled your purpose in life, but then you're about ten years older than me (still a little young to be at that point, I would think). er... You are about 28, right? (*Can't remember*)

I think what bothers me most when we talk is how you act like you know me, like you can see into my brain and pick it apart, even though you've never seen me once in your life, shared an experience with me, been around when I discovered something or stumbled across an idea... I don't mean to lose my respectful tone here, but what the fuck do you know about me? Just because I've outline how I view the world for you does not mean you understand me. You've seen *what* I think, but now how or why, so stop trying to psychoanalyze me. You are at least correct in infering that I don't know where I'm at, yet. The rest of it is way off.

Oh, about the Egyptians: They, unlike the modern monotheistic religions, did not believe in the elimination of evil. They saw it as the counter to good and believed that if you eliminated all evil, you would never know what 'good' is. Hence, their goal in existence was to keep in check all the evilness within them/the world around them.

[aishiterugazette]

SAMURAIS! they are more honourable I guess...ninjas are cool too.

[Amnell]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Amnell, I am 21.

I don't know you, but you are human. That is the point. People are pretty much all the same, really. The key things that drive you are just like anyone else. Another thing that makes your whole point so futile... You are really fighting for something no different than your every enemy, in essence...

Anyway, I never expected you to understand.

And there is only one Way of the Warrior. And then there are people trying to get there. Maybe like you. But there is only one conclusion as to what ultimate power and reach is.

Ah, haha, I must have confused your age with someone else, then *@_@ dumb*

Hm... So what does that say about you, then? Warrior or not, you are also a human. Like every animal on this planet, your every move is dictated by the basic needs of subsistence and self-preservation. Food, water, air, mate, safety, security, comfort, grouping, etc. Beyond that, goals may be infintely disparate, but the underlying motivations are the same: esteem, self-esteem, emotional connection, love, etc.

In following Bushido, do you not have times where you stop and think, 'This is the right thing for me to be doing and I'm glad I'm doing it'? When you think that, do you not feel good about yourself for what you're doing? That's how you're satisfying the basic need of self-esteem.

My point is that you're not an outsider looking in, able to draw connections between me and every other human. You're just like the rest of us. I have no doubt that you already knew that, but I don't think you considered it as you posted.

"You are really fighting for something no different than your every enemy, in essence..."

I'm not quite sure what you mean...

The last part: I've never been one to think that there is only one way to do something. Since everything has two aspects to it, there must always be two ways to go. It's just that the alternatives are often not readily seen.

*sigh* And so my never-ending and frustrating quest for full understanding continues XD .