American Animation vs. Japanese Anime Films

[Aniki]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

Also, what do you mean by saying the movies don't differ from each other?

This.

And that is why they'll keep making movies that don't differ from each other - the same CGI stories for children with HAHA situations and jokes that only adults can understand.

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

I love Satoshi Kon too, but I kind of see that as an example of movies that are all pretty similar. He really experiments a lot with pushing the boundaries to everyday plotlines. He experiments with the senses of a person while watching a film. He experiments with time and characters. In the end, to me, all of his work - while brilliant - just becomes a blob of experimentation. Paranoia Agent, Perfect Blue, Millennium Actress, Paprika... a whole lot of color and confusion. That, for me, is the same thing over and over again. It's the same with Miyazaki. He's absolutely brilliant, but his films are all pretty similar too.

It's funny that when you were talking about american animation you found so many differences, but when it comes to Myazaki you find his films pretty similar while ignoring this:

Originally Posted by Columbine

I think in general I lately enjoy more of the asian animations; I like the hand-painting backgrounds more than the super-shiny CG. I like the everyday quirkyness of ghibli's animation- the little details. Chihiro tying up her hair; the little boy in Howl's Moving Castle following the parade and not quite keeping up. It's very real- that's real life observation put into it, and I really think that's lacking in modern Disney. Like, there's more love put into making the film, it's not so much a money-spinner as the creator really just wants to share a story. That and American ones tend to be pretty sugary for my taste with a really clearly cut good-evil dichotomy. I like that in ghibli films the 'villains' aren't always vanquished or overtly reformed, sometimes they're not even always 'villains'. Kiki's had no villain at all, and neither did Totoro.

In the end, Japanese animation comes in all kinds of genres, so that each viewer could find what he's interested in. If you want color and confusion you'll find Satoshi Kons work enjoyable, you want sci-fi or mecha you'll watch GiTS Patlabor or NGE, if you want fantasy and thriller you'll enjoy Advent Children and Spirit's Within. American animation never gave such assortment.

[Tenchu]

Originally Posted by Aniki

In the end, Japanese animation comes in all kinds of genres, so that each viewer could find what he's interested in. If you want color and confusion you'll find Satoshi Kons work enjoyable, you want sci-fi or mecha you'll watch GiTS Patlabor or NGE, if you want fantasy and thriller you'll enjoy Advent Children and Spirit's Within. American animation never gave such assortment.

I don't agree with this. American animation has many different subjects that suit all.

You've got your fun family movies, from The Lion King to Treasure Planet, Aladin, 101 Dalmations and the Prince of Egypt.

You've got mature, yet all aged movies, such as Shrek, Over the Hedge and the Simpsons.

You've got strict adult animation, such as South Park.

Of course, the Japanese do have more animation, and it is hard to think off the top of my head good American films. This has a reason, however. The Japanese are not simply naturally talented at animations, they simply have a smaller country. American has much work available, and Japan does also, yet they have much less land.

So many people living in smaller apartments with fewer rural jobs available = many people either skilled at computers, or interested in electronic entertainment. Hence, the market is there to supply the demands of these people.

So perhaps Japan does have more of a variety, but it is a reasonable explanation, and when you go looking for a decent American animation movie, it is not hard to find, even if you've probably already seen it before...

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by Aniki

It's funny that when you were talking about american animation you found so many differences, but when it comes to Myazaki you find his films pretty similar while ignoring this:



In the end, Japanese animation comes in all kinds of genres, so that each viewer could find what he's interested in. If you want color and confusion you'll find Satoshi Kons work enjoyable, you want sci-fi or mecha you'll watch GiTS Patlabor or NGE, if you want fantasy and thriller you'll enjoy Advent Children and Spirit's Within. American animation never gave such assortment.

Oh, but I already wrote about why I don't think these movies are all just shiny HAHA movies, so I don't feel like I need to talk about that again.

I don't see the quirky little details as something that makes one movie stand out from another. Quriky little details are something found in all films. UP had wonderful details of what a dog acts like. Finding Nemo had SO much research on sea life, and got many details on how different groups of sea life behave. The Incredibles had details on what the 1950s were like in a communist era. I think these details give much more definition than how a girl puts on her shoes - which is, by the way, something that everyone appreciates so much because Spirited Away had that little documentary at the end about it. In my opinion, that documentary glorified those small details - details that are found in many films and TV shows. Don't get me wrong - I LOVE Spirited Away.

What I can agree with is the clear cut idea og good vs. evil found in American films. Generally, I think that idea is found in American films because of the general culture. In history, American films and literature have often had a way of saying "THIS IS THE BAD GUY" and "THIS IS THE GOOD GUY." Looking at American comics, especially. However, I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing. As far as entertainment goes, I personally like a clear-cut conflict. It's nice to understand the bad guys, which is definitely something that American films do. For example, the audience understands why Buddy from The Incredibles has such a grudge; and the audience understand why the explorer in UP wants to catch the bird so badly. I think American films will say who the bad guy is, but that they also give understanding and humanity to that character, making it - in my opinion - more entertaining.

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by TheLastFortnight

Well, in real life there's no bad guys or good guys, just different point of views and there are many animes which have this kind of distinction as well and to see the eternal fight between the good and evil, the black against the white isn't really that entertaining to me since my childhood.

That's why I went on to say that American movies humanize the bad guy, so that we understand them and see it from their point of view. We get their side of the story. We still understand that they are the character that's causing the conflict.

[iPhantom]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

No way, man, you're FU*KING DELUDED.

LOL, sorry. But it is true. Shrek is one of the greatest comedy of all time. Incredibles barely even passes as a comedy, just some lame, semi funny, action adventure.

I thought we were talking about the animation and not story?

Incredibles had better CGI effects.

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by iPhantom

I thought we were talking about the animation and not story?

Incredibles had better CGI effects.

For the whole topic? I'm talking about both story and animation.

[komitsuki]

As for today's mainstream quality animations from America, this is what is boiled up to.

http://www.memedepot.com/uploads/500...dreamworks.gif (Warning: Too big)

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

I don't see the quirky little details as something that makes one movie stand out from another. Quriky little details are something found in all films. UP had wonderful details of what a dog acts like. Finding Nemo had SO much research on sea life, and got many details on how different groups of sea life behave. The Incredibles had details on what the 1950s were like in a communist era. I think these details give much more definition than how a girl puts on her shoes - which is, by the way, something that everyone appreciates so much because Spirited Away had that little documentary at the end about it. In my opinion, that documentary glorified those small details - details that are found in many films and TV shows. Don't get me wrong - I LOVE Spirited Away.

I think American films will say who the bad guy is, but that they also give understanding and humanity to that character, making it - in my opinion - more entertaining.

I've actually never seen the documentary; I had no idea it existed until you mentioned it. Have to look it up, but no, what made the quirks stand out is that you watch it and think "hey, wow, that's not just a generalized motion- that's really human." An affect that for a 2D hand-drawn animation is real talent and shows real care and attention. Anyone can do research but it takes something more to deliver a 'real' moment in a cartoon fantasy. That's why I think the quirks in asian cinema are a real boon.

I kind of disagree with your view of American film villains- I don't think they ARE humanized. Someone mentioned the villain in The Incredibles. His motive... was banal. "I'm not famous, boo hoo, I'm going to blame you and take a petty revenge", that's not an understanding or humanized that's a cookie-cutter villain who is bad for what boils down to no reason at all. It's "And I would have gotten away with it too...bah!". You're not supposed to really root for them, asides maybe to think them pitiful.

Compare that with Blue Sub 6 in which it starts off with everyone saying the 'villain' is evil, and they are the force of good, but the 'villain''s motive isn't explained at that point and it evolves over the course of the film into a very grey moral area. He wipes out half the human race but only in order to save humanity as a whole, and there you can really see both sides of the equation and your loyalty can go either way. Even the protagonist doesn't want to see him dead. He's twisted, but underneath the twisted-ness is a person who generally wants to do good, for both parties, and moreover is willing to take the punishment it warrants without complaint. "Kill me", he says sincerely, "If it will make you feel better". That is not your usual villain. Princess Monoke is another good example. The leader of Iron Town is foul to the forest spirits, but is simultaneously a philanthropist, adopting ex-prostitutes and lepers no one else would look after with open arms.

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by TheLastFortnight

I think it's interesting to see the villain's point of view, but I think there are many anime series and films that have villains and humanise them too. But if the bad guy already is human why do they need to humanise it?

Still, I think the figure of the antagonist as the one who opposes the protagonist and isn't necessarily evil, is more interesting and original than the idea of the villain or bad guy. In animes you can find both villains and antagonists, while in the American animation only the former is common.

Humanizing is an essential quality of writing - not only in films, but in novels and in anything with a story that has characters. It's important to humanize a character, whether they're the one causing the conflict or not - and whether they're human or not.

I already told you my opinion on the last issue, so I don't feel like I need to repeat myself with that.

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by Columbine

I've actually never seen the documentary; I had no idea it existed until you mentioned it. Have to look it up, but no, what made the quirks stand out is that you watch it and think "hey, wow, that's not just a generalized motion- that's really human." An affect that for a 2D hand-drawn animation is real talent and shows real care and attention. Anyone can do research but it takes something more to deliver a 'real' moment in a cartoon fantasy. That's why I think the quirks in asian cinema are a real boon.

I kind of disagree with your view of American film villains- I don't think they ARE humanized. Someone mentioned the villain in The Incredibles. His motive... was banal. "I'm not famous, boo hoo, I'm going to blame you and take a petty revenge", that's not an understanding or humanized that's a cookie-cutter villain who is bad for what boils down to no reason at all. It's "And I would have gotten away with it too...bah!". You're not supposed to really root for them, asides maybe to think them pitiful.

Compare that with Blue Sub 6 in which it starts off with everyone saying the 'villain' is evil, and they are the force of good, but the 'villain''s motive isn't explained at that point and it evolves over the course of the film into a very grey moral area. He wipes out half the human race but only in order to save humanity as a whole, and there you can really see both sides of the equation and your loyalty can go either way. Even the protagonist doesn't want to see him dead. He's twisted, but underneath the twisted-ness is a person who generally wants to do good, for both parties, and moreover is willing to take the punishment it warrants without complaint. "Kill me", he says sincerely, "If it will make you feel better". That is not your usual villain. Princess Monoke is another good example. The leader of Iron Town is foul to the forest spirits, but is simultaneously a philanthropist, adopting ex-prostitutes and lepers no one else would look after with open arms.

It goes beyond Buddy not being famous. It was the play on the idea of heroes working alone - a Batman and Robin kind of complex. Mr. Incredible out right rejected Buddy. Rejection is something that all humans can recognize and feel. On top of that, Buddy wanted to be special. The idea of being special is something that ran throughout the film. Violet, the daughter, didn't like that she was so special, while the son Dash wanted to show off that he was special. Buddy, on the other hand, wasn't special at all. He had to build inventions so that he could compete with heroes. There's a line in the movie where Buddy reveals that he's going to make inventions to make everyone "super" (short for superhero). He laughs and says, "And when everyone is super - no one will be." (Believe me, I've seen this film so many times that I almost have it memorized.) The fact that he wants everyone to be special, thus making everyone at the same level, is also a humanizing factor. People can recognize the feeling of wanting to be special. People understand the motives behind Buddy's "evilness" of making sure that no one will be special so that he has the fair opportunity of competing. Revenge was a part of it - something put in so that younger children can understand the movie more clearly - but there's so much more to the character of Buddy than revenge. So, in short, the humanizing of Buddy goes far beyond him being upset that he's not famous. I'm not sure if fame had anything to do with the movie.

I've seen both movies, and understand what you're saying. I also agree with you. I just don't think that humanized characters are only found in Japanese films.