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07-10-2007, 06:28 AM
@Queenie - Queeeeenieeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 *huggles* So long since I saw your posts  .I certainly believe shinigami kill out of greed. If they weren't greedy why do they kill for extra life when they're at the end. Survival is still greed isn't it? At the end of your life you have a choice, die or live on to play poker. That doesn't sound too greedy off the bat, but the true choice is Die or live on to play poker by sucking someone else's life out knowing full well that the person doesn't have a hope in hell of protecting themselves from your act of murder. If a shinigami can still choose the latter then they're greedy alright. They might not aggrandize on life span by killing even when they have enough of it, but waiting for it to run out and killing at the end is just as bad because in the end whether you kill 10 humans upfront with a lifespan of 70 years to gain 700 years to your life or whether you kill one human with a lifespan of 70 years for ten seventy year periods, you're still killing enough humans just so you can gain 700 years of life and that sure sounds greedy. Someone countered that Ryuk is greedy because he meddled in human affairs but I staunchly disagree again. Greed is a given attribute of the shinigami. It's what they live for (pardon the pun  ). Ryuk was the ONLY shinigami who did anything with his life that was gained by greed. My quarrel with the shinigami isn't that they're greedy. That's an attribute, a bad one so help them god. My quarrel is that they're the laziest bunch of beings ever to be known in existence. They have infinite power to drain life forever and live on as immortals. Yet with all that everlasting life all they can do is play poker or sleep! If that isn't atrocity I don't know what is. If nature has given these beings enough power to remain immortal then I believe they owe it back to nature to use that power of theirs and do "something" good or bad instead of lying on their lazy backs. Ryuk was the only one who sought to do something rather than just live out a lackadaisical life. In fact I commend Ryuk on meddling into affairs in a pro active way. Lets not kid ourselves here - shinigami have been meddling in human affairs forever. That's their way of life because they kill us to live on. Yet their motivation has been nought but to gain another few years of lazy sleep. Why should we humans give up our active lives to support some lazy death god in an unholy dimention?  The least they can do is use that life of theirs to some end.If Ryuk meddled in bad way - fine! Instead of shunning him down, I'd expect another shinigami to interfere in a good way. I mean interfere already for crying out loud. Don't just sit there and play poker and drain 50 years off my tab when I've got enough hopes and aspirations to fulfill for the next seventy. If true justice is to be served then every human should have a "lifenote" where they can write shinigami names and suck their lives out. That way the most pro active ones stay alive, and the lackadaisical ones lose out. You snooze you lose and they said that for a reason! @Kira - I'd like to answer the question on government names and such. I don't think the deathnote works on a government name at all. You could use it on a pigmy in the amazon and it would still work . Why you ask? It's because the deathnote is based off human cognition. If you're Kira here and _____ in the real world then thinking of your picture and writing Kira in the note won't work... not because your real name isn't Kira, but because YOU don't believe your real name to be Kira. If you truly believed your name to be Kira so much so that you responded only to Kira and not to _______, writing Kira on a deathnote with your face in mind would certainly claim your life. It's not based on what the government calls you, or what your family calls you or what your nextdoor nieghbour feels your real name is. It's about what YOU think your true name is. If I think your true name is the same as what you think it is then I can definitely use a deathnote and pull a shinigami on you. Omae mo kanjite no ka... kaze no koe? 
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07-10-2007, 06:51 AM
Quote:
 This thread lives on coz of our SPK group ^^.Using your same logic, people would still fear a man with a gun. Take our loving pigmy's in the amazon again. They have no clue what a gun is. For all the world they think it's a kind of bark that is especially delicious when made into soup. But all of a sudden a crazed lunatic pops up with a real weapon and bang! five pigmy's bite the dust. Mr.Senior Psychopath becomes the newly elected "god". What's more he won't really last as god long because the pigmy's can see the method he uses to claim life. They know it's all down to that stick with a trigger thingamabog and if you take that away he's just a looney freak again. On the other hand Kira has a means of killing that people don't suspect. Even if they saw Kira write something in the notebook and shortly after someone pops their clogs, they wouldn't make a connection between writing in a note and someone dying. Why? Simply because writing is a common daily activity that people believe is harmless. You and I and everyone around here (including our recently dead pigmy angels ;_; ) know that a gun is far from harmless. Consequently anyone using a gun and shooting at someone else can be singled out at once. So what does that mean to the argument? It means that Kira is certainly not a god. Not a real one, not even a fake one and certainly not of his own world even if it ever comes into existence. The best he can be called is a dictator or an autocrat. You can't really play a god if you have a power that can be stolen. One person stealing the deathnote from under Kira's shoes and making the eye deal could have Kira's life in a moment and suddenly become the new "god". God isn't just a being with a power no one else has. It's a being with such power that can't be stolen. A power that is a defining attribute of the entity itself. In a true sense, the deathnote is the only "god" around here although not being able to think for itself makes it loose out on that title  .God needn't be forgiving or loving. That's what we want god to be. It's entirely possible that there exist a set of beings who want god to be cruel, because that's the way the define their lives (whacko's for sure). In their case a loving God is false one  .Which brings us to the final point, even if Kira was born with such a power so that it couldn't be stolen, he still wouldn't be god to all of us. Why? For the same reason that queenie pointed out. Our concept of God doesn't just rely on superior power. It relies on belief and faith as well. As long as people don't believe in Kira he wouldn't be a god whether or not the deathnote was a gift or a natural ability. And that boils down to one fact, Kira will only ever be god to that subset of people who really believe in him (like Mikami and his co-believers). To those that believe he is simply a dictator/murderer Kira will always remain a criminal (like good 'ol L and more recently Near  )Omae mo kanjite no ka... kaze no koe?
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07-10-2007, 07:34 AM
Nani?!
.. and here I thought I had put forth all my best arguments ... Booohoo! Am I not even close to winning this debate? ;_;..but you must read it. It has the most convincing arguments ever. And it's funny too. You'll love it. After a long days work, just when you're so tired this paragraph will come as a whiff of fresh air in the dry desert of desperation. It will console your heart and refresh your spirit when you think shinigami's are after your soul. It will comfort your ailing hope and... erm.. this is already too long isn't it ~_~;... desperate times call for desperate measures... *Brings in a bunch of cheerleaders* Go Kakashi-chan! Gimme an R Gimme an E Gimme an A Gimme a D. R-E-A-D - Read to exceed! *Whoots* ^_^Omae mo kanjite no ka... kaze no koe?
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07-10-2007, 07:34 AM
D**N Aoshi!!! So much!
Yet, all very well put.  Now, in the words of Gump, "That's all I got to say about that..." Night Guys! edit: wow aoshi....when you get desperate...you really get desperate...
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07-10-2007, 07:38 AM
Ha ha ha! Nighty Night nighty! *Pun so desperately intended it stands out like a sore thumb
*So Nighty's on my side too! *YAY! Whoots  *P.S:- Sorry for being in invisi. I got office work on the side so I'm only posting intermittently here...  ... sumimasen!  Omae mo kanjite no ka... kaze no koe?
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07-10-2007, 08:34 AM
@ Aoshi
Hello ! ::huggles back:: i missed ya :/ ::clears throat:: Well that was a very long post. So what i have to add is the same fact as before really. the death note cant be god it's a inadamant object If the god is one where his power can never be taken away then how can they believe a god really exists in the first place? How can you call the shinigami gods? knowing that their lives can be taken away by mere mortals if only they fall in love? then that would prove that the shinigami are in fact also mortal! making them just the same as us. which means that the shinigami are NOT gods, making them false gods. Kira isn't any different then the shinigami. He was a bored High school student.The shinigami just do what they do to survive! If you had to kill people to survive you most likely would. It may sound greedy but its a natural way of life. Sure you don't want to die for some lazy stupid "Death God" but we don't even believe they exist right? So we are none the wiser that we are dieing for them to survive. Greed i say comes into play when Ryuk drops the Death note into the human world. He was bored and did something only to benefit himself. That's greedy and also in most the episodes he just lays around eating apples all day and whining lol so even tho he's not in the shinigami world being bored and and eating apples now he lays around the human world wasting space. Sure he wanted a change of scenery BUT it would be like me and you turning on our TV. He was bored so he changed the channel. He wanted and change so he went to the human world to be lazy. The point I'm making is that Shinigami are in fact lazy and greedy. I have to strongly say that Ryuk is also lazy and greedy even tho he did something other then play poker he did a whole lot of laying around and doing nothing. He's a shinigami its what they are best at.  "The ignorant are mere stepping stones on the path to enlightenment." "People can always have a judgment about anything you do. So it doesn't bother me. Everything can be strange to someone." - Michael Jackson
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07-10-2007, 09:43 AM
Too true the deathnote is not god. Lets get that out of the way. It's inanimate and can't make decisions.. too bad ;_;.
Shinigami however, are gods because they are supernatural beings. They have powers that can't be taken away like: 1. Travelling to a different dimension 2. Phasing through walls (thanx for this kanji-kun ^_^) 3. Invisibility (thanx again to Kanji-kun) 4. Flight 5. Shinigami Sight. These are super human powers that are attributes of the shinigami beings themselves. We don't understand these powers so to us they are "godly" powers. You can't steal the shinigami sight from a death god (sure you can get the power youself, but the shinigami who gave it to you doesn't lose the sight in the act). You can't steal or take away a shinigami's flight. In fact you can't take away any of those attributes from a shinigami. The only thing that can probably be taken away is the deathnote. Admittedly humans can't take this away because we don't know of their existence, but other shinigami can. Ryuk himself stole a deathnote from the shinigami king. That being the case, shinigami are god, not because of their power to claim life (which is only imparted by the death note) but because of their power to perform all the points mentioned above. Nobody said anything about a God being immune to death. Shinigami are, in all aspects, immortal because they can leech life out as and when they please. However, that does not circumvent the fact that they can also be felled. Shinigami can certainly be killed, but that becomes a death of a god which makes the shinigami very very different from us. They are gods who can be killed yes, but they are in no way mortal. Kira is extrmely different from the shinigami. The single point of assymetry is that Kira cannot leech life by writing names in the deathnote. Irrespective of how many names he writes in the deathnote, his life span will remain undettered. That being the case, he cannot be excused like the shinigami can. We may write the shinigami off saying it is their mode of survival (albeit a greedy one), but Kira certainly had no need to use a deathnote. In fact the reason Kira used the deathnote was not because he needed to but because he wanted to. That makes him wholly different. He has no supernatural qualities (unless you consider his intellect although even that was matched as the story goes on). The only supernatural power that he does possess comes from a non-inherent attribute, one that can be stolen from him at any time: the deathnote. And this brings us back to the topic of "godliness". Kira has no supernatural attributes that set him apart from other mortals. Shinigami do. That is why they are gods and Kira is but a dictator playacting god. Gods they may be but they are lazy unrequired creatures nevertheless. Just because we die none the wiser doesn't assuage the motive of our passing. If a poker loving shinigami took the life out of an upcoming aspiring individual it's a total imbalance. The individual thinks he/she had a heart attack, but in the truth of things their modicum of death does not matter. What does matter is that they died at a time that was not their natural lifespan's end. The shinigami ate up the rest of their lives. The worst part of the story was that the life they did eat was put to no use at all! What's the difference between playing poker and being dead?...NO difference at all if you don't intend to put that poker game to some use... and that's what the shinigami do. True Ryuk was a layabout in the real world resting all the time. But he still kept a beady eye on the progress of things. He sought to understand human behaviour. Like you rightly said he wanted a change in scenery. And that's what sets him apart. The rest of the shinigami couldn't care less. They're no more useful in this existence than vestigial organs in a vegetative corpse. Among all of them, the one shinigami who truly showed any promise (however slight) was Ryuk. Was he greedy? YES he was. He was a shinigami. He had to be greedy. Okay "Greedy be pardoned" - what use did he put that greed to? Did he waste it around or did he use it towards a personal end? The very fact that he thought of something that would interest him shows motivation in living. It's that motivation which sets him apart. He not only showed motivation in meddling in human affairs, we also have an account of him having tricked the king of the shinigami and stealing a book. So Ryuk has shown sparks of intelligence over time. All put together, Ryuk has certainly lived up to his name as a shinigami, although he still leaves a lot to be desired. Kira would have been a perfect shinigami had he but the powers of the death gods. The rest of them are dandy layabouts amounting to more than a speck of dust in their dimension. Omae mo kanjite no ka... kaze no koe?
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07-10-2007, 01:11 PM
Hmmm Aoshi, some very intriguing arguements.
 I tend to agree with you about Ryuk. He is the only shinigami that seemed remotely intelligent besides Rem. And she let her emotions for Misa choose her fate. But Ryuk shows some real smarts. The whole story was after all his doing, was it not?As far as Kira being a "God", well that is just laughable. As you stated, he was only considered a god because he had an inanimate object that gave him an inhuman "power". But ultimately, he is just as human as anyone else. He bleeds doesn't he? People fear and revere that which they cannot explain or understand. Here comes Kira with promises to clean up the world of the evil doers, and he's mysteriously killing off people with an unknown power. He must be a god, right? Please. He's just a self-righteous, egotistical psycho who is way too intelligent for his own good. And after he expended all that energy and intelligence fighting against the world, just imagine what he could've done to REALLY help it.  Peace Love Recycle
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07-10-2007, 01:20 PM
The Anime ended quite predictably but the series was damned awesome.
I felt so sorry for Light in that last episode towards the end, despite hating him for killing L and causing Rems demise. He looked so alone. Curse of the Deathnote I guess.  Truth Hurts LIFE THREATENING Lifestyles A HITMAN, A NUN Lovers
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07-10-2007, 01:27 PM
Quote:
Truth Hurts LIFE THREATENING Lifestyles A HITMAN, A NUN Lovers
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