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02-06-2008, 03:18 PM
Wouldn't your reasoning be inductive? Indeed, nothing was specified prior to the question of deleting any existence, exclusive of the humans. However, the alternative shouldn't be neglected, that is the death note not stating "a building whose name was written in the note *would* die". XD Therefore, due to its inexplicitness, when the death note is notoriously known for being otherwise, it should have included some form of indication of what and whom it can kill. The fact that it did not, proves greater the odds against the theory of its ability to take lives aptly alien to the note's guidelines.
Moreover, neither Light nor L nor Near nor Mello (in random order) are what you, or for that matter anyone, would call senseless. Considering their highly advanced intellect, at least one of them would have highlighted and utilized it for his gains by now. In addition, a building has no life, scientifically speaking. While it may be true non-living entities sometimes develop lives of their own when sharing an intimate attachment to their owners if they're caring and loving enough, the prospect of fostering a bond like so just isn't realistic...  But that's a realist's point of view. For all we know, what may seem alive may not and vice-versa ~_~ I'm gonna havta checkmate your reason out then! Wahahahaha X_X *evil* Edit: Well, Kanji's post made more sense than mine  There's no such thing as happy endings, for when you find true love, happiness is everlasting.
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02-06-2008, 03:58 PM
Hmmm......I have thought it over repeatedly, and I can not see how it is possible for a Death Note to "take the life" from a building.
A building is not alive, in the sense that we know as living, a building may have been made from materials of something that was once alive, like a tree for example, but we cannot kill a building any more then we could kill a tree. Writing down a buildings name, would not topple it. We as humans, know that a building is not alive, so it is almost impossible to think it alive, since we all know in our hearts that it isn't, we live in buildings, and they shelter us. They stand for no more purpose then this. If it was alive, then it's creator would have to make it so. If your theory is correct, then having doubts would ruin everything. Any person on this planet, would doubt that a building has life. So therefore, I don't think anyone on earth would have that kind of mentality. To make someone think so, you would have to isolate them from birth, and make them believe what you like. If it was possible to destroy a house with a DN, then I think an alien would have to do it! XD
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02-06-2008, 05:17 PM
Exactly! But the fact remains that it can be done! Whether by alien, whether by some other weird half alive race or even by another walking talking building from a world we don't know (which admittedly falls into the category of alien), the point remains that the possibility that it can be done is definitely non-zero.
If you argue that a building is not alive, then decomposing it to it's elements makes both buildings and humans just a bunch of gathered atoms. The compositoin of the buildings atomic structure may be different from yours or mine but they are atoms, protons, neutrons and electrons regardless. The consiousness that drives these atoms is more pronounced in Humans than in Buildings. Just because we construct a building and just because we haven't seen it show any activity of what we define as "alive" we can't claim it isn't alive. There's not enough proof against it. Sure it doesn't walk talk or debate, but that just means it doesn't conform to what we as a race claim as "alive". My point in all of this is to state that the death note cannot conform to our rules. It isn't bound by what human society has thought up as the concept of "life". The only ground fact in the entire series so far is that it was a mulitdimentional object that was sent from the shinigami world to the human world which humans could use against other humans. The fact that humans didn't use it against inanimate entities or even animals for that matter does not in anyway limit the deathnote's capabilities. True neither light nor mello nor anyone else used the deathnote to say they toppled a building, but that's because none of them could. My emphasis on this phenomenon is that it does not reflect the incapacity of the deathnote but rather that of light, mello or anyone else who tried to use it. Neither light not mello ever considered a building to be "alive". They were brought up in human society bound tight by it's paranoid chains of the definitions of "alive" and "not alive". My theory is that IF there existed a planet where buildings were alive, and IF the deathnote fell into that planet in the hands of such an "alive" building, then could it be used against other bulidings?...Yes and No... I'll tell you why I think the answer is no. It's because the deathnote cannot work on one persons belief alone. For a deathnote to kill a person not only should the attacker know the targets name, the target must also know it to be their name. When light tried to kill ray penbar's fiance he didn't succeed at first since she used an alias. Light believed that the alias was her real name but it wasn't enough for the deathnote to claim her life. Not until Naomi revealed the name that she believed to be hers, could light use it against her. Consequently, the deathnote is a kind of deathly connection between the predator and the prey. It wont work until all the dots are connected, namely that: 1. The predator knows the prey to be alive. 2. The prey knows that it's alive. 3. The predator knows the preys name. 4. The prey belives the said name to be it's own as well. 5. The predator writes that name in the deathnote. The reason why a human can't kill a building is because point 1 is directly broken. My reasoning then was that if there were such a human that could see beyond point 1 then would the rest of them apply. The biggest hurdle to that is point 2. Even if I were to know a buliding was alive, unless the building knew it as well it wouldn't work. Not just that, I'd also need a name and the buliding has to also believe it has the same name. Without these atleast one of the dots will remain unconnected and the deathnote cant claim anything. All that aside however my only argument is that, hypothetically, if points 1 through 4 could be satisfied, the deathnote would damn sure work! The only inference from such a hypothesis though is that the real limitations for points 1 through 4 do not lie in the deathnote but rather in the predator and/or prey. As a mathematician, I therefore have to state that a statment like "The Deathnote cannot be used to kill a building" is false. The real statement is "We cannot use the deathnote to kill a building" and that statement reflects our abilities with the deathnote rather than the note's inherent capabilities. In summary, the act of one human killing another with a deathnote, is but a subset of the sum total of all possible actions allowed through the use of a deathnote and does not depict an entirety in itself. **erm.. did I branch out too much ... *scratches head* O_O** Edit: I have stated here that I am a mathematician, but I don't want to state that anymore given the probable ridicule I might face as hinted at two posts below, so I'd like everyone to consider that I didn't state it   Omae mo kanjite no ka... kaze no koe?
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02-07-2008, 09:31 PM
Oren!!!!!!!!!!!!
 I was worried I'd scared you away with my philosophical pout  . I'm so glad you're back! ^__________^Omae mo kanjite no ka... kaze no koe?
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02-08-2008, 08:25 AM
Your perspective is that of an antirealist. You are going against a fixed definition, which we base our lives on. What should be judged alive then? Are you claiming the same effects of "alive" on the non-living or stating "alive" in a different meaning? In that case, if I know my personality to be something living, and with accordance to all the dots, I can then physically devoid myself of being myself by 'writing it off' on the death note. My understanding is that all living things need energy to survive. There is nothing in this world able to cling onto life for centuries on end, with no energy source, or depleting ones for that matter. May I add some of the world's oldest buildings (still standing), such as those in Shibam, Yemen, far exceed the said period? ^_^
In the meantime, let's not bring breathing, living buildings into the picture yet. This point bewilders me: Quote:
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I beg to differ. Like you said: Quote:
It is humanity itself who has to accept the rules of the death note specifically set down. Also, it has nothing whatsoever to do with our known concepts for it is a book restricted to its own. On the contrary, the usage of the death note by humans is directly proportional to what the death note could be limited to. To top it, the death note HAS its limitations, which is due to its rules refering precisely to "human". In another words, even if it is used on an animal, say a dog, while complying to all your connections stated, it would never work. This information can be deduced from the very first episode of the series at 04:31: "The human whose name is written in this note shall die." Online Video: Death Note 1 | Veoh Video Network Cross-referencing here; I assure you it does not have anything to do with bad subbing.  04:40:YouTube - Death note episode 1 part 1 I daresay it's obvious from the spoken Japanese language itself - "ningen", which actually means "human". The primary characters of the series might have had a firm mentality inculcated by human society, however, it is best to note that mindsets can always be influenced. Chances are non-zero right? What was the harm in deviating their thinking from the norms of society? It was worth a definite shot, since they would have met the same fate either way, especially near (pun intended XD) the ending when last resorts had a certain attractive appeal. The fundamental explanation behind their actions lies in the essence of my above paragraph. Therefore, the act of one human killing another with a deathnote, is the sum total of all possible actions allowed through the use of a deathnote and absolutely does depict an entirety in itself. P.S. X___X Omg, you're a mathematician??! I hate mathematics >_<; That alone blanked my brains for half an hour O_O **I love it when things get branched out XD Gives a clearer perception of everything from a highly structured organized manner. Oren-san! You'd better get your ass back here this minute! XDXD** And of course, with an ending note, Light is still undisputed! ^^ Anyone got a problem? You're going down! =P There's no such thing as happy endings, for when you find true love, happiness is everlasting.
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Just for kicks ;) -
02-08-2008, 02:57 PM
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What Kira was one of us If God had a name Would it be Kira Would you be lame And mess up his game? No brain, no ball You're nought at all Yeah, yeah, you're just stinky pee Yeah, yeah, God is almighty Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah What if God was one of us Unlike a slob like one of you With Ray Penbar on the bus Nothing short of obstructing just If God had a face, he wouldn't be you 'Cuz a face like yours would make us puke Go look in the mirror, it'll crack through I still can't believe that you'd nuke Your own pathetic thoughts against his Ideals of ultimate salvation And prospect of eternal peace Yeah, yeah, God is a winner Yeah, yeah, you're a loser Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah What if God was one of us You wouldn't even stand a chance When his troops of light advance He's got more brains than hair on you So you should just go poo poo Feeding Ryuk some apples Hiding up for a noble cause Aided by Misa in battles Unlike you, you're at a loss! Yeah, yeah, God is the king Yeah, yeah, you aren't worth a thing Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah What if God was one of us Don't you dare kick up a fuss Watch out for his divine hand Accompanied by his holy band Trying to bring crime to a bound To foster hope across the world By keeping himself safe and sound Working to see the baddies hurled What better way to play God? Mess with him and you'll be done Like all hindrance - long and gone There's no such thing as happy endings, for when you find true love, happiness is everlasting.
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02-08-2008, 03:15 PM
Nice argument
but a bit vacuous however. If Light wants to play hardball then Ryuk will dodge too! ^_^Quote:
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1. No depth of belief can replace gut knowledge. Unless the woman "knows" that she is a piece of wood named plank her belief counts for nothing. 2. So assume then that she did "know" in her gut that she was a piece of wood named plank. Even then, she'd still believe she was a piece of wood that was "alive" which would automatically imply that life could be taken from her and prove my theory rather than the counter argument. 3. So to support the example more, I'll assume further still that she "knew" she was a piece of dead wood named Plank. First up, this statement is contradictory since "knowledge" presupposes "life" but again given that even that assumption is based on a human definition of "life", there is still no proof that Light would be able to kill her with a deathnote. Until it can be proven that Light would definitely be able to kill her, the possibility that he couldn't is still non-zero which again by our human standards counters the "sum total" theory. Quote:
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**Erm.. mathematics?.. teehee.. what mathematics? *rushes to edit previous post* ^^.. I agree I hated maths at school and even through a couple of years of college, but once you delve into the more abstract branches of math, it's more deep thinking and less actual numbers.. I guess that's when I began to see some hint of appeal in it** Omae mo kanjite no ka... kaze no koe?
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02-09-2008, 03:52 PM
Omg no...You guys are starting another DN debate.....>_< *decides to sit and keep Aunt Oren company*
And you L....I'm so ashamed of you. Look at your blasphemish Siggi....  *glares accusingly* You better have something for me, to appease my anger next time we talk, or I fear for your safety. P.S. I like your little quote thingy by your name Aoshi  P.P.S: Aoshi and Cooly should look at point of souls, right? Having a soul signifys individuality, and therefore allows the human to be signaled out and killed. P.P.S.S. A building.... rofl!P.P.P.S.S. *stares at my obscene amount of midterm work/homework....* --------____________________________________________--------- P.P.P.S.S.S. Cooly, you ruined a perfectly good song... *giggles*
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